All of his videos have been removed.

First, I apologize for my harsh tone. Sorry.

Second, no, they're not trade secrets. A trade secret is used to protect an individual or corporation against competitors in the same market. For example, I used to work for a company that had me sign a non-disclosure agreement and a no-compete agreement (for one year). Obvioiusly trade secrets are not the sort of thing a person publishes precisely because it empowers competitors. However, magicians publish sleights and effects all the time. They regularly make their ideas available to competitors (for a price). There's nothing to prevent someone from buying Toi Box, and then supplanting you at your gigs.

Moreover, there's also nothing remotely illegal when someone buys Toi Box, tells another magician how it's done, and then that guy uses this information YOU'VE discovered and published to win over your clients. Hell, there's nothing wrong with a person who SEES you doing your effects, reverse engineers the methods, and then takes your clients. The vast, vast majority of magic effects and sleights cannot be copyrighted.

See for instance here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_%28magic%29

And here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectua......_methods

The only way to get him to take down his videos is to either convince him that it's wrong, or convince Youtube that it's wrong (morally/ethically) and that youtube should revise their policy. If I'm not mistaken, Youtube does take an ethics-inpsired stance with regard to pornography (although that is not the best analog).

But again nothing remotely illegal has been done. He could put all of his videos on DVD and sell them if he wanted to.

Well, aparently Youtube saw that what he was doing was morally or ethically wrong. Are you a lawyer? I had to look up the word "supplanting"

I doesn't really bother me if someone put out an exposure DVD or book. It's just that YouTube is so easily accessable to anyone anytime for free that is so scary.

, Jonathan

Ha! I'm definitely not a lawyer. Although I break with the vast majority of people on this forum when it comes to exposure (I'm not rabidly against it, even in favor of it), I agree that YouTube is too accessible and too interconnected; it spills over into the mass exposure category. But of course, aside from people teaching effects, I think there's probably an even more serious problem with performance videos. Not only is the technique so bad that it constitutes exposure, but the ability to instantly replay allows intelligent and/or determined lay people to deduce the method for a lot of tricks (even if competently performed). An Elmsley count will go over their heads the first time, but I've seen too many people in the comments section say they watched it again and discovered "he showed the ace of diamonds two times." A lot of magic is just not suited for that medium.

ANYWAY. I am in contact with JesusJoe (Disclosure: I've known him for awhile and I think he's cool dude) and he says took down all of his videos himself. He also informs me YouTube's policy is to first remove videos when a complaint is lodged (in order to protect themselves), and then hear out the case.

He says he's in contact with a lawyer and the lawyer said he did nothing wrong, although using E's names for effects might be a grey area. He says the counter claim stuff is too much of a hassle, and agrees Youtube is not the best vehicle for exposure. However, he adds people can "expect more of the same," maintains he did nothing disrespectful, and claims the videos will be back.

He used E's name, Daniel Garcia's name, Jay Sankey's name, He exposed marketed effects. He handled himself very unprofessionally. I don't understand what his point was. He claimed it was to get back at Ellusionist but he hurt so many innocent people in the process who are just trying to make a living and have nothing to do with Ellusionist. Your friend is not a very cool dude in my opinion. He may of disguised his motives by claiming that he was getting back at Elussionist when the only purpose for doing what he did that I can see was to get attention. Maybe he will learn from this experience and go about his boycot in a more professional mature manner next time.

I understand that when you are starting out magic seems very expensive and we all wished we could of gotten the information for free. You may have worked extra hours to get enough money to afford the magic book you wanted from your local magic store. But what it did was made you respect the magic and the secret. What this also does is separates the serious magician from the people who just want to know the secret. All the young kids today are so used to stealing and hacking whatever they want for free off the internet that they don't know what it means to earn something anymore. Its like how a person would go through basic training to become a soldier. The basic training teaches them to respect their title. They have earned the right to be a soldier. What he is doing here is making well kept secrets available to any Joe off the street. They haven't earned the right to know these secrets. Do you think any Joe off the street should be able to grab a gun and a uniform and go off to war? I applaud the fact that he wants to stand up against big businesses who are scamming the public but don't hurt the art form you love in the process. I don't know one professional working magician that would condone what he is doing or respect him.

, Jonathan

Good points all the way through, Jonathan. I disagree with some things you said, but I'd rather not convert this thread (any more than it already is) to a discussion on exposure. I will say that I think using the names of effects is fine since his purpose is clearly non-commercial and there's no chance of product confusion. Indeed, a practice that disturbs me is someone taking an effect, changing the name, and then selling it for profit without citing proper credits *cough* Ellusionist *cough*.

What bothers me more than anything is E pursuing this matter. It's like cannibals lecturing the rest of us on proper etiquette at the dinner table.

It really makes me sad to see this kind of stuff so spread out. It doesn't affect me as I present my magic with a uniqueness, no one ever says , "OH I've seen that before!!"

Here's an idea, why don't we leave comments on thier videos with links to the forum with this thread, or a website that explains WHY this type of thing is wrong, and hurtful to anyone wanting to truly learn magic. I think that would be an awesome idea.

||Sean Beard ||
//Team E

I've seen people try. It usually just ends up in a flame war between you, him and anyone else who happens by and wants something for nothing.

Hi Jaxon,
When will we as magicians learn to heed our own advice?

Rule #1 of misdirection: People will pay attention to what we're paying attention to.

If the magician is looking at the cards, the audience will look at the cards. If the magician looks at his right pocket, the audience will look at his right pocket. This also means that if magicians continue to pay a lot of attention to exposure, so will the lay public.

I know it sounds difficult to sit on your hands while these people are "ruining magic", but it's necessary if we want to nip it in the bud. These people are not out to expose magic, they're out to expose themselves. If we keep giving them exposure, we're letting them win.

Look at a toddler, if he wants attention he'll throw a tantrum or cry. If you give him the attention, he learns that to get what he wants he must have to throw a tantrum or cry. These exposure artists are nothing more than toddlers.

Bye.

On YouTube the author of the video can remove your comments and even block you from leaving comments. So its not really fair. They simply remove all the negative comments and they look like eveyone agrees with what they are doing.

My new email for Penguin and the answer them;
Adilson,

Thanks for letting us know.

Best,

Kevin
Penguin Magic


On 8/30/06, adilson teles <adilson_teles@hotmail.com> wrote:
Dears,
Congratulations get it off, but there are others!
http://www.xxtube.com/xxxsults?search_qu......h=Search

This video has been removed by the user. informations about the email below;


>From: "Penguin Magic" < penguinsac@gmail.com>
>To: "adilson teles" <adilson_teles@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: exposure at youtube
>Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:12:34 -0700

Don't confuse what's right with what's lawful.

More so:What's ethically right may not be legally right and what's legally right may not be morally right.

But... on a simple level, this type of exposure is wrong by any definition. I salute everyone's efforts to stop this.

Man... just type in "Magic Explanation" and you have every explanation video Penguin Magic has ever posted.

Dear Fellow Mystery Worker,

well, exposure happen with or without YouTube....for example by un-Rehearse Un-Thinking Performance of Magic, because the fact is people are not stupid!

one way to overcome the Exposure (Notice that I did not say "STOP Exposure" )is to be as best as you can be to Fool the pants of your Audience.....because we can not control what other people do with Exposure...can you control the guy who do Exposure in the other side of the world?

as in this writing, here in my home land in indonesia, we got our own version of masked magician....yep that's true....he wears masked and expose many many things, like ITR, thumb Tip, The Raven...etc...etc...you name one of the magic Hot List, and I'll bet he has been exposing it on his show

the irony is that This masked magician is the son of one of Indonesian Great Magician name Mustafa...and when I was a kid Mustafa performed at my 6th Birthday...and then the magic bug bites me then the rest is history...

do I care with the Exposure?.....YES...but only for 5 minuets...then I go on with My works

is there something I can do?....YES.....but No tahnk you! as in this writing I am in the middle of writing my 3rd act based on Enrique Enriquez Art of Imagination & Kenton Knepper Books (Lots of them)

because I do not perform any of the material that he Exposed and most importantly I do not perform Magic that is in the HOT LIST & BEST SELLING from Magic Dealer....I do not perfrom Magic that is "YOU CAN DO IT 5MIN AFTER YOU READ THE INSTRUCTION".........I do not perform Magic that Scream "ITS DONE WITH SLEIGHT OF HAND" or "I'LL BET IF I HAD ONE OF THOSE THING I CAN DO IT ALSO" kinda of magic

My suggestion is with so many Brat Exposing Around.....I Suggest...search for more Stronger and Deeper Material that contain in......Guess where?......Books

and I'll do my best to make my performance look as good&Strong as possible, because in My act I use Multiple Method and Stacking lots of Magical Method & Principle and I try to create a unique Twist in the effect that I perform

basicly we can not stop Exposure....yes we can but soon after we stop One Stupid Brat that doing Exposure....soon than you can say Abracadabra....another Brat will Expose another people material....if not in your country it will be in my country...so How do you stop that?

Tommy Wonder in his Books of Wonder says taht Magic has 3 pillars
1. Sleight of Hand
2. Mechanical
3. Psycology

I combine all the three pillars in my performance.....and each pillars is cover within another layer and another layer......so I dare to all Brats out there to expose my ACT ...... if you can!

I'll bet it will be one Boring Lecture

So Dear Fellow Mystery Workers (Magician, Mentalist, Illusionist, Bizzarist, etc...etc...) do your Home Work and always strive to do better and better in each and every performance that you do....you should care to the people that you call Audience rather than some Lonely Brat that wish he was Davd Blaine or Criss Angel....and other Cyril Wannabe

Regards
Romy Rafael

Romy... such an excellent post.

Romy verbalizes everything that I think with regard to this matter.

Those that approach magic and it's presentation with care and artistry will rise far above the insipid pornography of simple minded exposure.

Beautiful, Romy.
It's tough to find such wisdom these days.

As Romy and others have expressed, be new, be original, have depth, have patience, have skill and the exposers can't touch you anymore.

Avoid exposure by being too good to expose.

P.S. Dave V., is that signature new? It's a great idea; I really wasn't sure if you where serious for a second.

I just became aware of this thread the day I made my post. I hadn't seen your reply until today.

I've posted my opinion of this stuff elsewhere. Everyone knows what it is. So why keep flogging a dead mule. The people who own this stuff know it's on youtube. If they don't want to do anything about it, it's their bad, not mine.

Besides, they have all of you guys to flog the mule.

Recent update -

Youtube is being sued for $$$a BILLION dollars by Viacom for copyright infringements, due to illegal vids being uploaded. Now, do you think they'll get the idea, or only deal with the specifics of this certain problem?

Lee

Cement shoes time?