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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
Bob, THANK YOU for the REAL info about Mark's offering and the history behind this. I'd rather the Café moderators lock the post now than have it spiral out of control and get deleted.
I've copied your thoughts just in vace this post gest deleted. It's greta to have the real scoop from the Maestro! Bob, you're too cool fo the room!!! Chris P.S. Jonathan, that sounds like an acceptable challenge. You'd get a lot of respect by accepting it!
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Magical Dimensions Inner circle 5001 Posts |
OK, now I am really intrested in Mark Mason 3 Fly.
THANKS BOB! Now I just HAVE to spend my money and get this new 3 Fly! LOL Hey, I am a recovering U3F addict! I go to meetings everyweek to try and break the habit. LOL Thanks Bob, for posting here. You made our day. Now where is that hammer....and that darn kids piggy bank........ Ray Noble |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Bob,
I don't recall asking you or anyone to sell any version of my coins across, much less give ANYONE permission to show the thing to other magicians. I kept the ideas behind that routine private for years before I showed that routine to Vernon and have kept the ideas private till I started posting here at the café. They remain my private property. Had I any interest in marketing that routine I showed you in 87 and again at your place in DC I would have asked you as you are a good salesman of other people's works. Given your comment to Kenner about "using that thing for the last coin vanish" at the Vernon Symposium, if I had any interest in discussing a gaffed version of the thing I would have asked you back then. As you have my email address and could have written to me there, I can only see this as further evidence of issues you have regarding basic ethics and courtesy. I have no idea what other works you have published which are essentially "borrowed" and at this time don't want to even look at anything you have produced for fear of propagating another creator's hard work without their permission. Best to you, Jonathan
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
I think everyone here has the greatest respect for Jonathan as a person and as a creator of things magical. I got greedy in wanting to see Jonathan's routine. When he's ready, I'm sure he'll share it with us all.
Best, Chris
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Craig Kyle Regular user 197 Posts |
I look orward to receiving Mr Townsesnds DVD on the 3 fly polt.
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4665 Posts |
On the New York Coin Magic Seminar DVD - VOl. 1 - COINS ACROSS, Roth, Gallo, Latta, and myself discuss the history of three fly. We have all seen Jonathan's original routine, and feel that Chris Kenner is the guy who developed three fly. As Bob said, he was inspired by JT's original routine where coins do go visually across, but his routine in handling is completely different (and that concept is not even original with JT- we point that out on our DVD). JT showed hs routine around back in the 80's to all the guys at the Sat. magician meeting place (which is where I saw it). I felt it was a nice coin routine, but to me (and I have written this to Jonathan), it was just another coins across, as so many versions are just another coins across. What Chris did (and independently so did Kurtz), was realize that there was a way to make the routine visible to a large number of people (impossible in JT's version), and he worked out a wonderful handling (COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM JT's original version)which accomplished this. Guys like Roth and Latta, who are scrupulous about proper crediting, have no reason to give anyone credit if they didn't truely believe it to be so. It is why we made the topic a discussion on our DVD. JT had asked us NOT to put any three fly handlings on our DVD. We feel that it is not his trick, nor his right to tell us what we could or could not do, and the handlings we put on in no way resemble his. One is based on Kenner's handling with proper credit. We have not been happy with the way JT has argued his case over the internet, We have seen blatent misrepresentations, which I have also pointed out to JT in private corrispondance. We have also seen private corrispondance between Kenner and JT, which are mindblowing when you read what JT has publicly said, but it is up to Kenner to decide if he wishes to reveal them on an open forum. We had hoped that after our discussion on our DVD, and after discussions with Kenner and JT, this controversy would have died. Unfortunately, I see that it has not. Bob's version is even more different that Kenner's, and any resemblance between Kenner's Three Fly, Bob's gimmicked handling, and our own versions from the DVD(Rubinstein, Latta, Harbottle)are only in the imagination of one person.
S.E.M. (The Sun, the Moon, and the Earth) is a sun and moon routine unlike any other. Limited to 100 sets, here is the promo:
https://youtu.be/aFuAWCNEuOI?si=ZdDUNV8lUPWvtOcL $325 ppd USA (Shipping extra outside of USA). If interested, shoot me an email for ordering information at rubinsteindvm@aol.com |
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
If someone already owns U3F, will they still need the new coin set to perform Mark Mason's routine? Who will be making the gaffs?
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h_A_Z Special user Ireland/Msia 701 Posts |
I am so curious about this new 3 fly. Ive been doing the U3F for about 2 years now and still enjoying performing it. When will this be released?
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Reading the Mark Mason part of this thread, I have to reiterate my basic request made long ago... that Bob show me the same basic courtesy regarding my work that Mark Mason showed him.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
I don't personally know Bob Kohler, but I have dealt with him when I purchased U3F and when I had a problem with the gaff. I also dealt with him when I had a problem with another product he sells. Bob is one of the nicest and most honest magic dealers I have ever dealt with. I have no reason to doubt anything he says. It is not your effect Jon. Time to either prove otherwise or get over it. I'm no expert and I've never seen your effect, but from what I understand your routine uses a deep back-clip and closed hands. Is this correct? Please correct me if I am wrong. If this is so, then there is no way anyone with any bit of sense in their heads would think that what we now call 3 Fly is the same as the one you created. There is no way yours could be done at the fingertips and at chest level. It is that plain and simple.
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Curtis Kam V.I.P. same as you, plus 3 and enough to make 3498 Posts |
Michael,
I think you've been misled. As I read Jon's last post, he's not saying anything about whether the routines are alike. The whole "show us yours and we'll compare" argument is beside the point, of this discussion, at least. Bob claims Jon's effect "inspired" his and Chris', in the same way, it seems, that Bob's routine "inspired" Mark Mason's. Bob then applauds Mark (as I do) for doing the right thing, and asking for permission to market a NEW routine, EVEN THOUGH it's distinguishable, simply because he was inspired by U3F. Jon seems to be asking the question that Bob's post begs...if Mark Mason did the right thing by asking for permission (and not just publishing with a credit) why shouldn't Bob have done the right thing vis-a-vis Jonathan? Even ignoring the fact that U3F was widely marketed and sold, whereas Jonathan's routine was shown in confidence, it seems that logical consistency requires the same courtesy. What's good for the goose, and all. I'm not taking sides here, I happen to like and respect everyone who's actually involved. But the situation is not improved by misstating the positions. That much, I submit, IS that plain and simple.
Is THAT a PALMS OF STEEL 5 Banner I see? YARRRRGH! Please visit The Magic Bakery
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-06-17 06:16, Curtis Kam wrote: A great post from a classy guy and...an Attourney. Read between the lines folks.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
Why should anyone have asked Jon for permision to market an effect that is not the same as his?
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-06-17 14:36, Micheal Leath wrote: Professional courtesy. Marketers of magic are like good lawyers: they only ask questions they already know the answer to. If you know the guy is going to say no, then you don't ask and release anway! :rotf:
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Mehtas Inner circle England, UK 1649 Posts |
Intresting debate.
There must be SOMETHING that has made Jonathan uneasy about the whole issue. Its a shame these things get mixed up in a thread and spoil the whole fun of upcoming miracle. |
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-06-17 15:24, MagicChris wrote: Say someone has a way to vanish a coin but it can only be performed for a few people close up. I come up with a way to vanish a coin that uses a completely different method and it can be performed for a much larger group of people. Should I have to ask the creator of the close up vanish before I release mine? Also, in Kenner's book he does credit Jon for the inspiration. |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
[quote]On 2006-06-17 17:08, Micheal Leath wrote:
Quote:
In think this is where Jon's argument comes in. He doesn't want to be credited. He showed his routine to someone and they came up with there own version. He would like to have been asked can the new, inspired routine be released.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Bob Kohler Special user 704 Posts |
Greetings,
My point is simply this; Jonathan's routine is nothing like Chris Kenner's invention "Three Fly". That's it! The only thing that they have in common is this, both are versions of Coins Across which the last time I checked was a classic effect of Magic. My challenge to Jonathan is simply this; publish the EXACT version of your routine Chris and I saw in the '80's. As I stated before and so has Michael Rubinstein, many well know magicians have seen the routine. Everyone I've spoken to agrees that the routines are totally different and Chris Kenner is the creator of "Three Fly". I also know magicians who have received written instructions of Jonathan's routine. After reviewing it they agree that Chris Kenner published a totally different routine. I was there when Jonathan showed the routine to Chris. I know what I saw. It's apples and oranges. They simply are not the same. Magic Chris states that perhaps I'm only asking questions I already know the answers too. He's right, I do know the answer. I'm trying to be direct as possible because it's time the magic world knows the truth. "Three Fly" is not a version or variation of Jonathan's routine. When Chris published his routine it was a completely new concept. Chris gave Jonathan the "inspiration" credit not because his routine was based on Jonathan's but because Jonathan got him to think about taking the Coins Across plot farther. He didn't copy Jonathan's routine. He didn't use any of his methods. He came up with an incredibly visual, practical solutiion to performing Coins Acroos at your fingertips at chest level. That is Chris Kenner's brilliance. I saw Jonathan's routine and dismissed it as unworkable. Chris' solution is legendary in my opinion. He deserves full credit. Curtis, you know I have a very high regard for you, you knowledge of magic and your body of work. I have to point out that comparing Mark Mason coming to me to ask for permission is a completely different situation. His routine does use the U3F gaff as a major part of his method. He developed his routine after using U3F in his shows. U3F is one of the cornerstones of the new routine. None of Chris' work on Three Fly comes from Jonathan's routine...none. One thing that never seems to get mentioned is that Jonathan vanished from the face of the earth for over a decade. When Three Fly was published nobody knew where he was. There were plenty of rumors floating around. I won't go into graphic detail as most were pretty ugly. But there was simply no way for Chris to locate him. Don't take this the wrong way. I'm not saying Chris NEEDED to find Jonathan but if he was around I'm sure Chris would have showed him Three Fly. And that would have ended this discussion. I released U3F YEARS after Chris published Three Fly. Jonathan still was no where to be found. I gave Jonathan the same Inspiration credit as Chris had for exactly the same reasons. So Jonathan it's time to quit making posts moaning about how you've been mistreated. In my opinion everything that's happened has been above board. The upside for you is when you came back everybody knew who you were. You should THANK Chris for that. The downside for you is now you've painted yourself into a corner. If you publish the routine everybody will know you've been complaining about nothing once they read it. If you don't publish it we'll all know why. I already know your answer... Best to you, Bob |
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Enigmo Loyal user 215 Posts |
I am not sure which post from Jonathan that Bob is referring to. Has something been deleted?
In any case, I am now very intrigued by this future 3-fly that Bob has alluded to... I can hardly wait. I am definitely hoping that Bob will not get out of the magic business. That would be a great loss for the rest of us. But coming back to the topic at hand: For me U3F is now currently the reference point in 3 fly so I naturally compared Mark's version to Bob's U3F when I saw it. I have provided my observations in an earlier post where I qualified Marks' version as better. In retrospect, I should have maybe phrased it differently. Maybe it was the novelty factor, Mark's enthusiasm, or what not but I remember being very excited when I saw his version. I even told Mark he had a winner while telling myself "**** I might have to buy this set now..." However, as Bob alluded to, Mark's routine is performed with a different tempo. I still stand by everything I said: The gimmick(s) is(are) really great and the routine has a lot of strenghts. You can't go wrong with it. All my positive comments don't take away anything away from U3F. As I stated, audiences don't stand a chance with either of them. In the end, purely from a rational cool-headed business point-of-view I will probably stick with my U3F since it suits its purpose well. I should also add that when I spoke to Mark, he was very respectful of the U3F routine merely emphasizing the strenghts of his product and not taking down another product. Michael Leath asks: "If someone already owns U3F, will they still need the new coin set to perform Mark Mason's routine?" The answer is yes; you get something different with Mark's gimmick. |
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
Thanks for answering my question Enigmo. I can't wait until this and Kohler's newest U3F is released. Too bad Bob said it would be a while before it is. On the good side, it gives me time to save up.
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