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scorch
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Most overhand shuffle control descriptions for retaining the top stock tell you to run a single card to injog and then shuffle off. But why just one card? Especially if you are just going to undercut to the jog, running a single card is unnecessary and somewhat suspicious if somebody is really burning you. I prefer to injog an entire packet of a half dozen cards or so, followed immediately by another packet that is slightly outjogged to cover the injog and just make it look rather naturally "sloppy." With a packet of cards (and especially if your left pinky is where it should be, according to the Card College description), keeping the break below the injog is just as sure.

There are, of course, controls and certain situations where running a single card is quite important, such as when you need to get a break above the single card for some reason, or you're running a specific number of cards off. But for the standard overhand shuffle to retain top stock which is used 90% of the time, injogging a small packet instead of a single card is a nice improvement over what the standard books usually teach.
Denis Behr
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alakazam!
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I agree completely with scorch and am slightly surprised by Darwin Ortiz's response in the thread mentioned. I suppose someone of his class can get away with virtually any method he choses but for most of us if we're controlled the top stock as described it probably deserves more attention. Injogging a small packet as oppose to single card and continuing in a casual way certainly strikes me as a good way to take the heat of the shuffle. I'm sure lots of people will argue that there should be no heat on the shuffle whatsoever anyway, but this is "just in case," and in any case laymen treat magicians' shuffles very suspiciously ;-) I think there's something almost exactly like scorch says in Ednase whereby it is suggested to run several cards gradually back to the level of the deck and continuing "sloppily." Perhaps it may be helpful to read this again.
NeoMagic
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Giobbi suggests this in Card College 1: "... the injog could also be formed by a small packet of cards." (p.44)
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Denis Behr
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Ortiz' reply is indeed surprising since not only Erdnase knows that "The finished card expert considers nothing too trivial that in any way contributes to his success". If often looks more careless if you shuffle off a small packet instead of a single card. That said in this case you have to shift one hand to form the injog while in the single-card-method you don't need to shift anything back and forth since the left thumb can create the jog by drawing the card off diagonally.

And it is interesting to consider alternatives, too. The Jennings technique found HERE is very interesting (and throws off anybody who is looking for in- or outjogs... since there are none) and the Marlo treatments found HERE are also worth studying.

Denis
wsduncan
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I’m not sure why anyone is puzzled by Darwin’s response.

Since both the single card injog and the block injog are meant to simulate an UNCONTROLED action it would seem to me that they are both equally deceptive since if you were not controlling things either a small block OR a single card might fall during the shuffle.

So, as Darwin suggested, use the method that you find most comfortable and don’t worry about it.

OR you could use the Vernon technique which is to run a single card FLUSH with the stock in the left hand and then as the hands come together to take more cards the left thumb pushes the single card back forming a small injog. THIS is more subtle and more like that would happen accidentally than having a card MISS the stock in your hand and fall injogged…
Denis Behr
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Quote:
On 2006-06-10 14:03, wsduncan wrote:
So, as Darwin suggested, use the method that you find most comfortable and don’t worry about it.

Well, Ortiz actually wrote that "There are far more important things to worry about in magic than the best way to do a jog shuffle".
This statement is indeed surprising to me since the jog shuffle is a fundamental sleight and hence it is not a bad idea to worry a lot about the best way to do it. Obviously Vernon did.

Denis
scorch
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Quote:
On 2006-06-10 14:42, Denis Behr wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-06-10 14:03, wsduncan wrote:
So, as Darwin suggested, use the method that you find most comfortable and don’t worry about it.

Well, Ortiz actually wrote that "There are far more important things to worry about in magic than the best way to do a jog shuffle".


Yes, I think the statement was bordering on arrogance. Actually, I can think of very few things that are quite as important as the best way to do a jog shuffle! Ortiz should know better. The details make all the difference.
Top Hat
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That's because, scorch, you show no respect to Darwin Ortiz ("Ortiz" to you) and do not understand the real meaning of what he is saying. You miss the point entirely. And your statement that "there are very few things as important as blah blah..." demonstrates that.
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scorch
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Blah blah is right, tophat.

Do you have anything meaningful to contribute, or any way to substantiate your arguments?
wsduncan
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Well Denis, I have to agree with both sentiments.

There are far more important things to worry about in magic than MINOR differences in technique. As I noted both methods are inferior to the Vernon technique and for that matter to the standard lift shuffle method.

So, if you're going to use one or the other of the two posited methods (block or single card injog) it really isn't terribly important which one you choose.

It's like asking which is better, Royal Crown or Safeway brand cola. Neither is The Real Thing Smile
landmark
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When I first learned the jog shuffle--I think it was from a Bill Turner book--I learned to run 3 cards flush then injog the next. I find that useful as it seems to take off the heat from the beginning of the shuffle, and it allows you to show that the top few cards are not the chosen card.


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I find that a one handed shuffle is misdirection enough and you can pretty much keep the top 1/4 of the deck the same and they don't notice. They are too distracted by the sight of a one handed shuffle.
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Paul H
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There does seem to be a variety of views about the deceptiveness of the jog shuffle and I think I know where Darwin Ortiz is coming from. My own solution is to alternate the jog shuffle with the lift shuffle. Personally I have never been called out for using a jog shuffle with either the throw or break and shuffle off methods. I have a feeling that the worry about jog shuffles eminates from performing for magicians who know what to look for. Bannon in his 'Dear Mr Fantasy' book describes a Marlo method of getting a card second from top using an overhand shuffle that utilises a false jog. It seems to me this method is specifically designed to throw 'those in the know' off the scent. In my experience thus far, audiences seems to regard the jog shuffle as a good legitimate overhand shuffle.

Regards,

Paul H
NeoMagic
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^ Paul, you might already know that the Overhand Lift Shuffle is also useful for getting the selection second from top. Continue the shuffle until all the cards but one have been shuffled off (it helps, as you come to the last few cards, if you slightly pinch the cards between the middle finger and thumb). Then simply drop this card and the secretly held packet in front. I hope that makes sense. Once you develop a touch you can use this to get the selection second or even third during a single shuffle.
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scorch
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Quote:
On 2006-06-10 23:21, landmark wrote:
When I first learned the jog shuffle--I think it was from a Bill Turner book--I learned to run 3 cards flush then injog the next. I find that useful as it seems to take off the heat from the beginning of the shuffle, and it allows you to show that the top few cards are not the chosen card.


I'm not sure how that would "take the heat from the beginning of the shuffle." To my way of thinking, running single cards is one of the very things that spectators do watch for, and that look fishy to them. So starting out from the very beginning by running four single cards, adds more heat. Besides, you're talking about a control that leaves the selection fourth from the top. I'm talking about a standard top stock control.
rambam
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I don't think you people should be screaming or complaining about what darwin ortiz said, he is probably the best close up card magician/technician besides allan ackerman!
scorch
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Who's "screaming?"

Darwin Ortiz is not a god, after all. You're right that he's a brilliant technician, but as a performer I think he's somewhat overrated. He doesn't have much charisma, and his performances have always seemed kind of dry to me.

Sorry if I'm "screaming" again.
rambam
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I still don't agree with yu a pack and one card is the same thing, and the spec, shouldn't see either of them!
Top Hat
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Lol

Thing is, scorch, it's only you that's highlighting what you think is Darwin Ortiz's lack of ability and charisma. Everyone else seems to be talking about the jog shuffle, and whether or not they agree with your statement that "there are very few things that are quite as important as the best way to do it" Smile

It's important to be able to perform sleights well. However, performance magic is about far more than that.

Must go - I'm late for my screaming lesson.
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