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philwoo
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Switzerland
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Hi,
I just had my first 2 seminars for the surveillance people in my old casion where I have been working as a dealer/inspector till last week.
they were surprised and so was i!
they did not know about a lot of stuff the dealer can do.
does somebody in here have had the same experience?

best regards

Phil.

PS:
they told me that if I chose to come back to the casino I wont deal anymore Smile
Andrei
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Romania
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Hi Phil,

What sort of cheating ploys did you expose/demonstrate?
How would you say their level of cheating/advantage play awareness was on a 1-10 scale, before attending your seminars? How about after attending your seminars?

Best,
Andrei
Dannydoyle
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What casino any more in our day and age has no idea what a dealer can do?

I mean the info is out there for decades now.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
philwoo
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Andrei:
I showed them some false deals (second, bottom, greek) some run ups and stacking, doubled the complete procedures (wash, riffle, riffle, cut, riffle, cut) and gave the chosen one 2 aces...
showed em juice...peeking, flashing with second/bottom deal combinations...
and some more...
I think after the seminar they had more ideas...but I guess in 3 weeks they have forgotten a lot of it.
I made a scale for them (1-8) to give me feedback... 1: they had no clue, 8: they knew all.
so only one crosed a 3. all the others have crossed a 1 or a 2 by themselfs.

dannydoyle:
that's what I mean...this was what stroke me...
tommy
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Philwoo


You doubled the complete procedures (wash, riffle, riffle, (A strip?)cut, riffle, cut) and gave the chosen one 2 aces...

Would it be too much to ask to see a film of this?

Regards

Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
sodman12
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raleigh
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Yeah that would be nice to see. ive been wanting someone to post a casino procedure and fakes shuffles and cuts. I think a lot of people would enjoy seeing something that is of quality
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
philwoo
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Hi...
I will do a film and post it on my website...
as soon as its up ill let you know...
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2006-06-16 18:45, Dannydoyle wrote:
What casino any more in our day and age has no idea what a dealer can do?

I mean the info is out there for decades now.




Most of that is magic BS that they've never seen nor will they ever see.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
philwoo
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I agree...but where those the magic come from?
from the card table...
agree?
Mr. Z
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Oh sure, maybe 20 plus years ago you may've found some of those classic sleights still in use in some form, but nowadays it's a rarity. I'm talking the casino card room environment. The romantic notion magicians have of master mechanics employing all the Erdnase moves to get the money is an outdated and inaccurate one. If the dealer's down generally they recruit a "square" dealer and teach him rudimentary false shuffles, etc...

It's important to know what's possible but futile to be concerned about exotic false deals, 2 for 2 hand mucks, and so on.

My .02, anyways...
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
The Dowser
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Quote:
On 2006-06-16 18:45, Dannydoyle wrote:
What casino any more in our day and age has no idea what a dealer can do?

I mean the info is out there for decades now.



The truly knowledgeable staff will not miss an oppurtunity to refresh their knowledge or learn something new but the majority of the people attending these seminars are the ones who need it most ( usually new management staff that have worked their way up from dealing and hopefully have had minimal exposure to this stuff untill now .) Very often a seperate seminar for those in surv' and knowledgeable execs' may be conducted .
I'm not in anyway disputing the prevalent lack of knowledge in the industry ( despite the amazing materials made available by the likes of Steve Forte ) but there are usually a few sharp cookies in every jar...in positions where this kind of knowledge is of most benefit .
Having added my .02, I must generally agree with Mr. Z's post for a total of .04
Dowser
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Philwoo :
Just a thought :
If this is a casino where you were previously employed in a dealing capacity (last week) and they find you are now offering your knowledge as a consultant on game security and cheat at play ... their interest in hiring you may be more about assertaining what you may have been capable of on their games rather than your ability to teach games protection . Just the novelty of pointing out to some of their managers what could have been going on under their own noses during the course of your employment might be worth the fee for a smart exec' who wants to wake a few sleeping pit bosses.
Dowser
Unknown419
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Quote:
On 2006-06-16 19:08, philwoo wrote:
Andrei:
I showed them some false deals (second, bottom, greek) some run ups and stacking, doubled the complete procedures (wash, riffle, riffle, cut, riffle, cut) and gave the chosen one 2 aces...
showed em juice...peeking, flashing with second/bottom deal combinations...
and some more...
I think after the seminar they had more ideas...but I guess in 3 weeks they have forgotten a lot of it.
I made a scale for them (1-8) to give me feedback... 1: they had no clue, 8: they knew all.
so only one crosed a 3. all the others have crossed a 1 or a 2 by themselfs.

dannydoyle:
that's what I mean...this was what stroke me...





Did I Not Write About This In A Previous Thread Under....

The Hustler's Code

Code # 1
To keep a sleeper (sucker/casinos) sleep. If you think that the casinos are not getting robbed all the time you are sadly mistaken. Why do you think that they have surveillance cameras? They give their footage to people such as Sal to examine because they can’t figure out what’s going on. Why would I give my footage to someone else if I know what’s going on? Are you reading between the lines?

They brain wash the public and cheats by showing off all them cameras to viewers that they have everything under control when they don’t. They can’t tell the public that occasional cheats are robbing them everyday because every cheat in the world would try to come there so that’s a no, no.

In our world everybody got to eat…that means while we’re (the casino) is robbing the public (legally) you can rob us too (but don’t get caught). Didn’t Mr. Dowser write in a post to me “Doc that dice switch would’ve gotten by my box men?” What is that telling you? It’s telling me that they could still be robbed. Well then Doc? Don’t even think about it they don’t have to worry about me because I’m too scared to; I look at too many movies and I’m not fond of deserts.

Signed By

I Told You So...

Doc
philwoo
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Dowser:
yes, some of them are allways interested in learning something...
others don't want to listen (personal reasons)...
it was funny to see the eyes of them...
anyway, I did it only for the surveillance and the interested managers. they asked me if any others of the staff are able to do that...
:)

Doc:
I did not read your previous post about the hustler code.
but when I'm reading your post here, I guess you are working for a casino.
and so you know that there is a lot of knowlege missing.
I agree with you that the cameras is more a scare of thing. cause there is not one person for one camera in the house.
if they have the luck to be tipped of by somebody, they can go back and watch the tape. but even then, when the zoom was to far, or the angle not good, forget about it.
I can give you examples...but id prefer to on a PM basis if you are interested...

regards

phil.
Dannydoyle
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Mr.Z, thank you.

I agree completly.

I spend a LOT of time in casinos. I am neither a cheat or a dealer or work for survaliance or security.
I count cards at a Blackjack table. Nothing esoteric, nothing new, simple to the point. I play poker. NO cheating even thought of just hard work grinding out my 1-1 1/2 big bets an hour. Simple really.

BUT I have a lot of knowlege of cheating methods. LOTS. And no I don't agree that magic moves come from the card table. It is as wrong as the notion that to escape from a straight jacket you have to dislocate something. MAYBE someone does it that way but 99% don't.

Look at magic moves and look at gambling moves. 2 completly different, yet related schools. Chimps and Spider Monkeys.

Have all the romantic notions you like about card cheats and casinos I guess. But as Mr.Z indicated, reality is slightly different.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
philwoo
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What I meant by the magic comes from the cardtables:
the slights are not the same but some now used magic slights have their roots at the card table.
agree ?
tommy
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Philwoo

Someone has remarked: "The top card men in the world disagree on many things. One thing they all agree on is that no other book in the history of card manipulation deserves careful study more than The Expert at the Card Table. After one hundred years, it is still considered the foundation upon which modern card magic is based. It contains some of the most perfectly constructed sleights in all of card magic. Even more important are the profound lessons in the real secrets of magic: naturalness, attention to detail, uniformity of action and the psychology of deception. For a century, the methods of S.W. Erdnase have been studied, practiced and written about by countless card experts." So I would not argue with what you say.

Regards

Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Expertmagician
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I remember doing some magic for a pit boss years ago at the Desert Inn and he had no idea if when I was doing false shuffles, stacks or seconds, etc.

I sure hope their "eye in the sky" was more knowledgeable Smile
Long Island,

New York
tommy
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I sure hope they don't. Smile The casino dealers I know, know nothing or very little. I have employed many over the years to deal at my game. My best friends daughter is a casino manager and she knows nothing, that is not saying she is silly, she knows when somthing just don't look right. I also know casino owners, a family of owners some of them, the sons, who have taken over business, are well lets say brainless. Having said that I don't think you could get away with much in a casino. If they suspect anything at all it is like Doc said they can afford to pay experts to view the tapes and the procedures are tight. Big casinos in Vegas no doubt have top experts on hand. Not all casinos around the world are the same. They just look simular but the staff in some are not expert at all, but no casino is easy. If you find a way in a casino it is usually a simple way, but it can result big money. No one is going to tell you a move that they found that is working in a casino, that would be silly. I have never known any business where there was no fiddle playing. I agree there are many romantic notions but I have personally known of least one guy beat a casino and get away with it. I think most of these things that work are usully found by working from the inside and sometimes just by accident. Someone makes a mistake and sees no says anything and so he does it again and no says anything, all of sudden he has a way. Where there is a will there is always a way. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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Tommy to a point your right. And the part I really agree with is the inside part. 80% of all retail theft, which this does fall under, is internal. NAIL ON HEAD.

The thing to keep in mind is that the staff at survalance is far different from the dealers. The dealers job is NOT to catch cheats. Simply to follow procedures laid out and keep up on them. By default many or most of those procedures are designed to keep people from, capping, pulling and hand marriage.

BUT it is survalance that is in charge of actually finding those people. Yes from casino to casino quality varries no doubt. Just like the quality of dealer.

To say the dealer has no knowlege of cheating is not the point. Not their job. Usually not even the job of the floor manager.

Where people fall down in any scam is greed. Yea they get away the first time, the second time, up the ante and BAM are caught. Turns out they were on to them from the second time.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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