I read somewhere (probably Scarne on dice) that if you hold a cube with the six spot on top and look at the face with the three spot that the pips will run diagonally from the lower left to the upper right of the cube face. Likewise with the two spot if you have the four spot on top.

I always look at dice and see if this is holding true. And from what I remember it always has. But I have a a pair of casino dice that do not hold true to that formula.

The question; Is this formation of the pips on a cube so old or well known that it is no longer a standard way to make dice? Do some casinos buck the standard formation on their dice in an attempt to bust some half smart cheats? Or was this never really the "standard" in dice making.

Anyone know for sure?

Vandy

This way / or that way. What difference does it make which way the dots run I ask myself.

It dosen't matter. Especially if the old formula dosen't hold true and casinos have them going this way / and that .

Vandy,

Both spotting methods are seen in legitimate casino dice, though the former is much more common.

In the majority of casino dice, the 1-2-3, 4-5-6, 1-3-5 and 2-4-6 sides run counter-clockwise.

Look for the 2 to 'cut' or 'run' into the 3-6 corner. The other spotting alignment has the 2 cutting the 4-6 or 1-3 corners.

Jason

Thanks Jason!

I don't have a massive collection but all the dice I had around were had the typical pattern. Except for these. But now I know that other casinos DID (and I suppsose some still do) use the lefthanded pattern.

Thanks again.

Vandy

I think it depends on the manufacturer...I believe there is mention of this in steve fortes big book and a few other resources.

One of these days I'm gonna get that Forte stuff.

Vandy, Scarne was correct and it does make a difference. 9 out of 10 times when dice are made the way that you say your dice are it means that the dice is usually crooked (but not necessarily). Why? Using dice that goes in the opposite direction signifies to the cheat that these are his dice.

Scenario:

Let's say I'm playing craps and my dice are juice dice and I had them made with the casino logo that I want to cheat (my friend have every logo that every casino uses), the only way I would be able to tell my dice from the original is the different diagonal direction of the dice.

Those dice that you have may be Magnetic, Bevels, Edge Work or Loaded and if you don't see any loads in the dice check them again and see if they are the new loaded dice that are not made with slugs (I won't go into detail about this). I'm not saying that some casinos doesn't do this but the chances are that someone tried to cheat the casino with them dice.

Being that I don't have the time to look up the information in Scarne On Dice for verification of my statement see Frank Garcia's "How To Detect Crooked Gambling," pg 234. Some new variations has been made like making everything on the dice correct except for the 3 splitting the 6 from left to right instead making the six split the deuce. Most hustlers who are accustomed to the opposite direction dice is totally fooled by the expert cheat who only uses the switched around 6 to detect his dice.

Vandy again thanks for help.


Your Friend

Doc

Thanks everyone for the good information.

Doc, these things aren't gaffed. Believe me, I've checked and rechecked. Also, just taking into account where I got the die I know they aren't gaffed. I wish they were, but I've checked them everyway I know how, and examined them every way I can short of X-ray and electron microscope. They aren't phonies, but they are lefthanded. "Gaffed" brought up the good point that the pips on the three and duce are sometimes reversed and then loaded to give extra weight in the right places on dice made to roll high numbers. Very crafty.

Thanks again

Vandy

Did you check them with a micrometer to see if they were 1/1000 or 2/1000 of an inch off? You can't do this with the naked eye. Did you blow your breath on the dice to see if you heated the residue that might be on the die? Is certain parts of the dice a kind of rough and the other smooth?

Dice being loaded on the 3 and 2 to give extra weight in the right spots are not always true because there are different nations for passers and mis-outs where loading those particular numbers does not apply. The different direction is for knowing which of the two regular dice is yours when putting your dice into play one at a time.

Vandy tell me how can you check a dice that's been heated by an iron into flats and after it has been cooled down goes back to it's orignal shape; oh and one more thing, how did you check the die for the new weighted plastic material that's made with the regular dice when you can't see it?

I await your reply.

Best Regards,

Doc

Doc,

You are correct. Reversing and then loading the dice may not give you the combinations that you are looking for. For craps. But it can be handy for certain other games. Especially a lot of the "bar" games like Ship,Capatin and Crew. Now, since these are casino dice, the natural assumption would be that if they were gaffed, they would have been gaffed for craps. But I don't naturally assume that. I assume nothing as a matter of fact.

As far as these dice. I have checked them, they are no longer what I would call "perfects". For one, I have used these particular dice for stacking for close to a year now. That kind of sucks but, unfortunately it is the case. But I see no evidence that these are gaffed. True if you make dice into shapes by pressing them onto an iron you can't really detect it later except that the whole cube may be slightly out of whack when it cools back down. Myself, if I was doing that I wouldn't bother with the reverse pip formation. The work dosen't last long enough in my opinion to bother with permanently marking it with a reverse pip formation. I wouldn't do it. Would you?

But I concede that I don't have all the tools (knowledge wise or equipment wise) to determine if I've got a set of baloneys or not. I'd be willing to bet that they aren't. However, if you want to check them out I'd be glad to send them to you. If you can show me that they favor any point (other than from whatever advantage they may have gained from wear and tear) I'd love to hear about it and I'd certainly appreciate it.

Drop me a PM. I'll get em' right out to you.

Vandy

Vandy conceding in this area shows your true knowledge of dice of which I was testing you for and I highly commend you for passing this test. It's an honor knowing you. You know this is how us hustlers test each other; by conversation.

Keep up the good work and keep asking questions because this is how I learned.

Your Friend

Doc

Whew, I passed!! LOL.

Seriously Doc. Thanks alot. I truly hope we get the chance to sit down sometime and have a conversation in person. I'm not afraid to admit that I don't know it all. I can only check these things using whatever knowledge and tools that I have, and I have no problem whatsoever defering to the true experts in these areas.

I'm no genius but I know that the way to learn is not by pretending that I have all the answers, but by listening to those in the know and expanding my knowledge and skills bit by bit.

Thanks again Sir,

Vandy

You know some people want to have all the answers when it's impossible because new systems, technology etc. is popping up everyday. No one has all the answers especially not me but I'm here willing to listen and learn so that I can get better.

Your Friend

Doc