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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Kard Klub/Shapeshifter DVDs and their Impact on Magic (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

karbonkid
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This is such a food for thought topic, and I was curious to see where everyone else rings in on this one.

Since the Easy To Master series, Michael Ammar, has caught a bunch of flak. I have heard mentions of this and that, stolen this and ripped off that. But, all in all, I think what Ammar did was an overall good thing despite ticking off a lot of people in the process.

Now, fast forward to the DVD age and Brad Christiansen from Ellusionist. Is it honestly right to charge $40 for a DVD that teaches some trick called 'Two Card Monte' (appropriately named 'Be Honest, What is it?')? Is it right to charge that much money to learn the Shapeshifter change by DeSousa? Single effects on a DVD.

What I really mean is that Ammar handled it with care and a deserved amount of crediting, and put lots of things on one tape/now DVD, that it was worth the price. Seems like the ellusionist crew is really about milking every effect in every possible way.

So, my questions to you are

What do you feel are the differences between Mr. Christiansen and Mr. Ammar are?

What are the differences, ethically, between Ellusionists out-put, and the Easy to Master series?

and lastly

How do you think these things will impact magic in the long run?
Bill Palmer
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I would actually call this more of an ethics topic or a review topic.

The ethics here are a bit deeper than just Ellusionist and Ammar. For example, was Marc de Souza credited on the DVD? How about Oscar Muńoz, who actually inspired the Shapeshifter change?

Ammar is an excellent teacher, who has paid his dues. I find that he generally credits people when credit is due.

I can't comment about Ellusionist, because I don't have their videos. Their stuff is a tad lower down the ladder than material I normally deal with.
"The Swatter"

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harishjose
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Quote:
On 2006-06-19 17:22, Bill Palmer wrote:
The ethics here are a bit deeper than just Ellusionist and Ammar. For example, was Marc de Souza credited on the DVD? How about Oscar Muńoz, who actually inspired the Shapeshifter change?

I believe the DVD "Shapeshifter" starred Marc De Souza himself.
To believe is Magic.
karbonkid
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Marc De Souza does apparently star in the shapeshifter DVD, but, as Bill stated it was originally Oscar Munoz who started the change, and it was originally published by Steve Beam in the Trapdoor.

But the two card monte video (Kard Klub) has 8 performances and several different takes on a trick that requires 2 sleights. It is much the case of 'How many magicians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?'

Ammar has paid his dues, unlike the others, and he took a lot of criticism for what he did with the Easy to Master series, however, Ellusionist does even less desirable things with even less material. Then again, I haven't, and will not part with money to have some Johnny Come Lately teach me a classic of magic, that, if you actually studied, would run across it. Just my two cents.
Bill Palmer
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Mike has received a lot of criticism over his teaching style and the material he has chosen. I think most of this is grossly unfair. I have been working with IT for more than 30 years, but I felt that if I wanted to update my thinking on it, I needed to see what he was doing, since he was one of the pioneers. I got his ETMIT DVD's. They are excellent. I like the way he brings in other performers to show their own work. His teaching methods are sound. He starts at square zero and works his way across the board. The language is easily understood.

I've done a lot of teaching, myself. I know what needs to happen. Michael Ammar does it.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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cinemagician
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I recently bought my first video from ellusionist, Stigmata by Wayne Houchin. Although the video contained "only one trick" it also contained an explanation of Acidis Novus by Milliard Longman. I thoght overall that it was well produced and fairly priced.
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karbonkid
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That was my first purchase from ellusionist as well, and since it was exclusive, I had no other choice. However $40 for a classic of magic that is two simple moves is just, really, out of the question.
bradchristian
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Karbonkid,

All I ask when creating a thread like this is that you get your facts straight and that the thread be based on honesty rather than conjecture.

Kard Klub Underground has several tricks included in the DVD/Booklet package, but that's not the purpose of the DVD - to teach tricks - and we state that up front. The purpose is to learn showmanship and control on the street. The video is striking in its ability to teach by example. As far as I've seen there has not been a magic video that teaches even remotely the way KK does, and the reviews are evidence of that.

Onward to Shapeshifter. Amazingly, Munoz is fully credited on the DVD and was contacted by Ellusionist before production began. We went so far as to include a picture of him in the DVD. The entire story is told front to back by DeSouza at the beginning of the DVD. Next, is it a single-trick DVD? Strangely, several unique moves and effects are taught by both Marc and myself on Shapeshifter.

Do you own Shapeshifer?
Do you own Kard Klub?

Then why start a thread like this that has such a negative tone? Perhaps spend the time creating, it will take you a lot farther down the road than this will.

All the best,

Brad Christian

Ellusionist
Kaylan
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Hi everyone...here's my 2 cents...and I'm not trying to offend anyone, but the way I feel about charging X amount of dollars for a DVD is that someone can charge whatever amount they want to charge...quite simply, if you don't like what you see, then don't buy it. If someone's overcharging for a product, then not many people will buy it, and they won't make much $$$ off of the product. The seller will have to either live with the fact that their product may be overpriced, or they'll need to reevaluate their pricing. I just don' think people should complain about a price tag...just have an opinion, and act based on your judgment. IE, hmmm....$40 for that? No thanks.
Again...just my humble opinion.

:) Kaylan
wayno
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Quote:
On 2006-06-22 13:19, karbonkid wrote:
That was my first purchase from ellusionist as well, and since it was exclusive, I had no other choice. However $40 for a classic of magic that is two simple moves is just, really, out of the question.


You do have choices. You just need to shop around a bit before you buy.

You could have gotten the origional version (Banachek's from his PSI Series). His DVD costs a little less, and you get 7 other Banachek masterpeices to learn.

Sincerely,
Wayne Stevenson
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Wayne Stevenson
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mzr9mm
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The thing is that the DVDs are awsome, honestly the shapeshifter was one of the changes/moves that motivated me to take magic and perform it.

First I learned the shapeshifter just by looking hundreds of times at the effect but when I got the DVD I realised I was doing it all wrong, after I performed it like Marc DeSouza and Brad Christian explained it in the DVD I must say that I was surprised, the cahnge was more visual then before.

About Kard Klub:
I agree with Brad, the DVD was not ment to sell as a single trick but to teach you how to learn showmanship and control on the street. And I realy enjoyed the way Brad explines in absolute detail each and every phaze along with the presentation and missdirection, when and how to use it.

Overall : Shapeshifter and Kard Klub Underground - excelent work.

Best regards,

-Daniel
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