The following is a post by the properly named "DaffyDoug" and my response...

Quote:


On 2006-06-22 05:59, daffydoug wrote:
I rarely buy through dealers anymore. I found someone who can get just about ANY magic item for a hefty discount. Pm if interested.



Well, that is really sweet. It is hard enough for someone to make a living as a dealer. so you( or someone you know) has a account with Murphy's and is selling off the books to his buddies. THAT is REALLY low... Congratulations...



The more I look at this the more it angers me. A lot of dealers depend on being able to sell products a markup. sorry if that bothers Doug, but they do have to pay bills.
Since then I have talked to a couple of other dealers. Evidentally, old Douggy is not a lone wolf in doing this. It seems to be a growing issue. I am glad I decided not to release any more of my items to distributors. Only to individual dealers.

Gee Tony, at least he is not discussing downloading stuff off p2p sites. Nice that he wants to buy books.

And by the way, dealers are well advised to reply to emails when customers want to place an order to buy items.

If a bricks and mortar shop wants to exist, it needs to serve its community. Magic has huge opportunities for education and mentoring. Folks who have questions and want to learn would be much better off seeking help at a magic shop than looking for data online.

The problem lies with dealers like Murphy's who supply magic shops. People can not only open a merchant account but, they will also drop ship the items right to their customers for them. So now they can open up an internet magic shop right in their basement without having to stock a bunch of merchandise. It is hard for a brick and mortar shop to compete with that. People don't realize what they are missing from going into a shop and actually talking to someone.
The Yogi Magic Mart in Baltimore used to be a great shop. The staff was very knowledgable and willing to help anyone that wanted to learn. One by one these old school shops are closing and magic will suffer because of it. These internet shops only care about making money and not you as a magician.
Another thing you have to deal with in today's marketplace are the hacks that sell their own products. It seems anyone with an idea or a video camera can put out a dvd or a trick. These are alomost always inferior products which sometimes don't even come with a routine. You can find many of these people right here on the Café trying to promote their products and creating hype even before they are released.
So unfortunately as long as anyone can get a merchant account, and unknown and untalented people can put out inferior products, and the magic community continues to support these people in order to save a few bucks, the brick and mortar magic shops will have a tough time surviving.

Bar I could not have said it any better thanks

A great deal of truth posted above, BUT...

Every business, every system you can think of, has a paradigm - a "map of reality" or a way things work - that people get used to and invest in and love. Then the world changes, GUARANTEED sooner or later, and the paradigm no longer works.

It's "adapt or die," like it or not.

I love the old magic shops too - but the world may have moved too far away from where it was when they could thrive. All the problems and complaints above are valid, but eliminating them won't bring health back to a business model that just doesn't pay off anymore.

Plus there's the human factor - there's a particular shop I'm still mourning ... granddad sold me tricks in a musty and fascinating shop when I was a kid, dad saw me through my pro-magician career, dad retires and ... son doesn't like or respect anyone (and makes no secret of it) and the shop goes down the toilet. Darn shame, but it happens.

What a magic shop offers that an internet site does not is service. They have a magician on staff to give you suggestions and guide you in the right direction. If you decided to build a deck for the first time how would you do it? You could save some money and buy everything you need online. Or you could go to Home Depot where they have professionals on staff to give you suggestions and maybe recommend a book which would help you out. Tell you what kind of finish to use to protect and beautify the wood. I am sure that the finished product will be very noticable.

The same goes for magic shops. I have seen a lot of young magicians who can perform all of the moves but, have no idea how to structure a routine to entertain people. Just because you can hammer a nail, it does not make you a carpender. Just because you bought a trick online, does not make you a magician. As these shops close down magic suffers and it is sad to see it happen.

Look Ross,you are missing the point ENTIRELY! I was not simply talking about "brick and mortar" shops. The practice described in my original post hurts ALL magic shops. This guy is selling pretty much at cost to his buddies simply because he can get it wholesale. And DaffyDoug is proud of it. And will tell you all about it in PM's. Well, I do not want my stuff given away like this. And I do not want some schmuck undercutting me or any dealers I pick to sell my work.

Then you can try to prevent this practice by choosing who you wholesale to.

If, like many magic manufacturers, you are just one guy making things to sell to dealers, you can try to determine whether someone is buying for resale at retail, or not - requiring a resale tax ID number from a purchaser would go far to ensure that.

If you're big enough to manufacture and sell to distributors (who then sell to shops), having one or two people buy at the distributor's low rates and sell to their friends may cause you mental anguish, but at that level it's just "a drop in the bucket".

The tax ID number isn't really going to help and here's why. If a person opens up an account with a distributor (let's use Murphy's as an example) they (Murphy's) will ask the vendor for a tax ID number in order to open the account. So the person opens up an account. But becasue the person is working out of his garage and drop shipping items 1 at a time, he doesn't have the worry of moving product. His garage doesn't fill up with product and he's under no pressure to sell. As a result he can get product wholesale for his friends and actual shops lose income. So when the shops go out of business where do magicians turn to get the things they want and need? Well, they will turn to direputable companies that sell their crap on the internet. In the end, certain people end up having to wallow in the world they created and helped contribute to. Unfortuantely, they bring the rest of us down. The best combat tactic is to not support these type of activities financially. As soon as people find out there's no money to be made in an activity, there will be no interest in the activity. On a different but related note, I believe that anyone that supports this type of activity should lose all rights to complain about anything that relates to magic...and then do us all a favor and get out of magic all together...forever.

Best,

Dorian Rhodell (Mr. Bitter)

Correct, and there will always be a few people who try to "game the system."

But I didn't say requiring buyers to jump through the "resale tax number" hoop would stop this activity - just diminish it. At least you'd lose the portion (you decide what percentage) of people who WOULD do it, but find such a requirement too much trouble (or aren't smart enough to figure it out.)

Sure they're an annoyance, but if this is all it takes to kill old-fashioned magic shops entirely, then old-fashioned magic shops aren't a particularly vigorous and profitable business model anymore. Darned shame, but true.

I think the finger of blame might most appropriately be pointed at internet-only shops, who lack the many expenses of brich-and-mortar shops, but ... hey ... internet selling is the business model of the future, it seems. Can't stop progress (like it or not).

And the flip side of that is the increasing cost of every sort of brick-and-mortar institution (from magic shops to colleges to independent bookstores), and many another once-accessible business enterprise. Take the movie biz as only one example. When I was young, a smart fellow could make a crappy movie (maybe something like ATTACK OF THE GIANT LEECHES) for $20,000, count on making $50,000 from drive-ins, and go down in movie history. Now the new SUPERMAN, probably not a lot better than LEECHES when you really think about it, cost TWO HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS. Somebody's going to hell for spending that much on a forgettable flick about a guy in blue tights, when there are people starving in the world.

I've gone off on a side track, I know, but my original point is: you can't stop 'em, but you can hinder 'em.

Actually, you can stop em.

Shut down all retail outlets of mass market magic items by buying only from the inventor or their delegate.

Ah yes, Superman. The big blue schoolboy. Here is a great moment in superhero history:

Son, I want you to go out into the world and do good.
First here are your tights.
Now, put on your matching boots and swimsuit.
And son, it gets cold out there, so here is a cape to match the boots.
Now get out there and do good.

Back to money here...

As long as our works are sold on an open market, they are commodities and any "additional" aesthetic issues raised will be subject to local and personal tastes and values which puts them outside of dispute. I am sorry Ross, this time we don't agree. I have a business tax ID number. I could offer to give folks the books I want them to read at a discount, and do so with good intent and within the law. Is that good or bad according to your position? The intended outcome is good, but the local retailer outcome for those items is bad. Yet if the works where read and understood, there would be more respect for retail goods which is good. But there may as well be much less interest in retail goods as they are low art and often unauthorized copies of high art, and so would be shunned which would be bad for retail business in magic. It's not quite so simple is it?

If the system is designed to move commodities, perhaps the game is best left unplayed?

I love my brick & mortar magic shops and support them whenever I can...and yet, I still buy certain products (such as balloons and similar consumables) from wholesale dealers for quantity discounts that the B&M shop can't match. I am a business and I have to make the best financial decisions for MY business. This includes forming buying clubs with local professional peers where we pool our funds and buy certain items wholesale or negotiate discounted volumes.

We compensate by buying from the B&M shops when we can and by sending new customers their way every chance we get.

I have to adapt to remain in business...and so do our B&M shops. Those that survive will create a growing presence on the Internet. They will offer unbeatable customer service and support to keep the loyal customers and draw the new ones. They will maintain the highest level of honesty and integrity. They will branch out and develop multiple streams of intersupportive income such as production, lectures, instruction, related product and service lines, invention, adaptation, construction, promotion and so on. If they can't adapt, then they have no more right to flourish than the Pterodactyl. The B&M shops, like myself, must adjust to the market at hand.

I can't base my business' survival and growth on theirs. If a bargain presents itself, growth & profit demands that I grab it. Anything less is mere foolishness from a commercial sense.

Having said this, what right do any of us have to demand that a hobbyist or enthusiast...or a part-time pro...pay full price when less-costly avenues are available. If you don't like it, maintain control of your product by limiting your access to the product. You can't fight the economics of the free enterprise system.

As far as selling your product to a wholesaler then objecting when the wholesaler sells it as they deem proper...you received the money you negotiated from the wholesaler. I don't see the issue.

Magic wholesalers are tightening up. There was a seller here on the Café who kept "mysteriously finding" dozens of items in his closet. These items were brand new, with instructions and sealed wrapping. He got tossed off the Café, because he was really no more than a discounter and wasn't paying for advertising.

Guys like this caused some of the wholesalers to be more careful. When I applied to Murphy's to be a retalier, I had been in the business for a long time, mainly selling at lectures. There is a local dealer I could by wholesale from, but I didn't want to put him through the trouble. I had to submit my Tax ID, several business references, and all sorts of other info to get permission to purchase from them.

Many of my customers are dealers. If I go into competition with them, by discounting to all and sundry, I might as well not be in business. This is one of the principles that some corporations learn too late.

I'll give you an example.

During the 1970's, the prices on digital watches went through the floor. Texas Instruments had a digital watch chip that they sold to several manufacturers. One of them was Timex. Some marketing wizard at TI got the idea that all that a digital watch was, was a display, a battery, a chip and a case. So they started manufacturing their own digital watches. They priced them low. They sold a bunch of them. And Timex lost a lot of sales.

Timex had to turn loose of a lot of employees at their Abilene facility, because of the revenue loss.

Then something really interesting happened. People who worked in jobs that were, shall we say, a bit less clean than some others noticed that the TI watches had a tendency to wear out quickly and that they were not as impervious to moisture as the Timex products. TI didn't realize that the case was as important as the chip. Timex had been making cases for a long time.

Gradually, the Timex company picked up some of the slack. A few years later, the home computer wars started. TI put out the ill-fated TI 99-4/A, which they eventually were selling for $10 less than dealer cost, just to get them off the shelves. They had warehouses full of the things. And Timex struck.

They made a deal with Clive Sinclair to purchase the little Sinclair computers. They marketed them under the name Timex-Sinclair. The first sold for $129, which was about $20 less than the TI 99-4/A. Then they got cheaper, and cheaper and cheaper. They were offered as real estate giveaways. I purchased one at a drugstore for $29.95.

TI had planned to unveil a new computer, but they just didn't have the momentum to do it. So they went to court, bankrupted that division of TA, and the settlement stated that they were to stay out of the home computer market for FIVE YEARS!!!

Two weeks later, Timex announced that they would no longer be importing the Timex-Sinclair computers.

Mission accomplished.

And don't forget the butterfly over my head this very moment . . .


Jack Shalom

The thing is that you can now get the advice that you formerly got from magic shops available on the Internet. You can read magic blogs, news reviews, and boards like Magic Café where some of the best magicians in the world post. All the opinions are up to the minute about the latest items and there are lots of different opinions available.

After that, you can buy things at big discounts from online suppliers or elsewhere.

So, it's a free market. Those that want to can enjoy service at the bricks and mortar places, and pay premium prices for it. Others may like to peruse the Internet for advice and shop at a discount. There's probably room for both, and even if there isn't, then so be it. The market decides and people will shop they way they like. There's no point in bemoaning it, you have to move with the times.

I would like to 'chime in' here. Yes, there are lots of magic shops going down the tubes..real magic shops without all of the novelties,costumes,etc are hard to find. To say the 'internet' has killed 'em - in business you have to adapt or get out of the way...in any market not just magic. We operate one of the largest magic shops in the country in Colon, Michigan - F.A.B. Magic - Our showroom alone is 7000 square feet. We fill it up with our magic and used magic from others. We have done very well as well as others like Denny's Magic with a true magic shop.Yes, the wholesalers are tightening up and that is a good sign. We supply Murphys Magic with over a dozen different products that we manufacture here. They are responsible wholesalers - I can personally vouch for that - we deal exclusively with them. There are other wholesalers who we wouldn't partner with because of questionable ethics. In order to survive and thrive in these fast past times you need to have a good balance of mail order,manufacturing new items,internet and have a retail prescence. Yes, there are some internet companies doing well and they have found their 'niche'. I believe in my heart that bricks and mortar shops will stand the test of time - there is nothing like walking into a shop full of magic and perusing the different props. Long live the magic shop wherever they may be located! Rick Fisher, F.A.B. Magic, Colon, Michigan - the magic capital of the world.

I have bought over the internet a number of times and have been disappointed because what looks good may not be (or not suitable for me). I would prefer shopping at a reputable "brick and mortar" magic shop that had good customer service and a magician who knows the products and can give me good advice.

I have little patience with the oft-heard mantras "You have to go with progress.", and "You can't fight the free market." And the idea that we can't "eliminate" the forces contributing to the decline of the B&M magic shop but we can "hinder" them sounds reasonable but seems to me to miss the point. The magic community has a history and certain traditions which have hitherto been essential to the development of our art, and to the training of aspiring magicians. The fact is that you really *can't* get from the internet what you can from personal interaction with an accomplished magician, and in my experience the magic shops I have visited have all had serious magicians behind the counter. In the past few months I have visited magic shops in Eugene, Oregon, Vancouver, British Columbia, and Los Angeles. On each of these visits I've learned something from the guy behind the counter that I'd not seen before and that was directly useful to me. And I've been performing magic for more than 50 years. Specifically, some ingenious tips on the pass, a brilliant and more deceptive version of the flustration count, and a fabulous twist to the spider vanish. In each case the guy learned it from a guy who learned it from a guy who... There is simply no substitute for this kind of interaction.

When I was first getting into magic in my pre-teens, I'd hang out at (what used to be) Tannen's. A kid who'd buy something regularly -not necessarily every time- could hang out and even overhear Lou or Jim Herpick detailing moves and secrets to other magicians, BUT there was a condition: you had to show e.g. Jim that you had been working on the sleight that he'd helped you with last week, and that you'd made some progress. Jim or Lou would then offer suggestions for improvement. Same thing would happen next week. This element in the formation of young magicians is what's disappearing by the commodification of magic on a mass scale. Our economic system tends to commodify, standardize and, in very many cases lower the quality, of more and more things. Once upon a time there were fewer magicians, and most of them were quite good, hard-working dweebs like myself who knew that taking magic seriously was like taking your piano lessons seriously: you had to work. Now there are more magicians, but a larger percentage of them are not very good. If this is what the "free market" and "progress" entail, then so much the worst for them. In response to this remark, we will be told that the "free" market and progress are inevitable. Well, to call the developments under discussion "progress" implies that they represent a *betterment* of our art, and that begs the very issue under discussion. And as for the free market -- my politics happen to be WAY to the Left of 99.9% of my magician buddies, so the fact that something is allegedly necessitated by the free market carries less than zero weight with me.

I apologize if this sounds a bit lecturey and argumentative -- I'm a just-retired prof of political economy and well, we academics sometimes sound like pompous asses. We really aren't though. No really, we aren't.
Best,
Alan

Times are really changing and there is no other way but to adapt, as what have already been mentioned above.

As a fellow "hang out at Tannen's" person I understand and that's the way I learned quite a bit. Another condition was not passing on advice or ideas given which were not from books but from the giver. In other words, keeping secrets.

Curious to see an open market on secrets.

Yeah okay you do read a little bit like Noam Chomsky with the long sentences... but hey reading is fundamental.

:)