Over the last year alone we've seen the passing of a few magic greats.

We hear and read stories of greats recently passed told by those who knew them. Some of the story tellers have long and successful backgrounds in magic. These people were there and new them. They tell us all kinds of stories regarding great names that have left us. I'm grateful for their willingness to share candid moments with the rest of us. Some of the things I've heard or read of my favorites I would of never known had one of the old timers not shared the story! The present day greats/old timers make a HUGE contribution to our community when they share such. They sure do.

It reminds me of a post by Bill Palmer here:



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Posted: May 11, 2006 11:38pm

We are living on a cusp, friends. Our connections to the past are rapidly disappearing.

I think I began to notice it when Dai Vernon passed away. He had been directly responsible for getting me to try performing for a living. He'd had a lot of influence on me from even before I met him. I didn't know Duke Stern well, nor Lou Derman or Joe Berg, so I guess it was The Professor that really woke me up.

Then Punx went. I may have been the last real friend he had.

I would see them drop away, one by one. Bob Blau, whom I'd known since I was a kid, Gene DeJean, went, too.

Irv Weiner, Karrell Fox, Bob Read, all giants.

This past month has been particularly rough. Billy McComb, Channing Pollock....

Do yourself a favor. Write a letter or a note or even an e-mail to an old friend. Give him or her a phone call.

Let them know you care.

You will be glad you did.

And you will be very disappointed in yourself if you don't."

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Yesterday we added TOMMY WONDER to the list!

Bill's post was an excellent and timely reminder to those who can help. A reminder that they can help develop and prepare (those willing to listen and seeking the help) performers of tomorrow - who knows, maybe another "Great" for the future of magic.

Within this, the greatest online discussion board for magicians, we've entertained some very thought provoking topics. We've talked about the responsibilities a performer has to oneself, to one's audience, and the art in general. We've agreed and disagreed but we've grappled with these topics nontheless.

I'd like to add one more responsibility to the thousands of pages. The responsibility of the experienced and still living to mentor or teach those who seek them out and are willing to carry a torch. Some of us are trying really hard and because we enjoy it so much it's not even work. Some of us have knocked on doors for help in development. I know what it's like to ask for one's help or opinion and get it and so much more. I also know what it's like to be ignored. The second treatment isn't much fun but at least I know their name.

Some of you have helped while others have not. Perhaps those not helping, the still living, to become better magicians, are truley too busy or truley unable to assist those who could benefit from guidance. Perhaps their "greatness" does not facilitate the lowly act of teaching those less talented and skilled. Eventhough the potential student has a fanatical interest in the same magic practiced by his or her favorite "Great". We shall give the non participants the benefit of the doubt as we've yet to hear their reasons directly. The very very few experienced who've helped me along didn't owe me a d*** thing but they extended their guidance! I know their names. I know their names and I know what I talk about when I speak of their contributions to me and the magic community.

Some performers whether amateur or pro are better than others. Many of them despite the rigors of their daily life still invest as much of their hard earned money and sacrificed time to improve one step at a time. Are they crazy to do so? I've always said you better believe it. But that's the sort of animal many of the deceased greats were when they were coming up.

A reminder to all the story tellers. The greats who have passed were not always that great. They became just that with hard work, dedication, and from the stories I've been told, good mentoring.

To the pro with the knowledge and past involvement with greats now gone, what have you done to perpetuate great magic? Other than responsibly handle YOUR performance and role in magicdom and post here and elsewhere on the internet,

Have you planted a seed in magicdom in the form of mentoring or helping along those who ask for help?

I personally would find anything else selfish, egomaniacal, and recklessly irresponsible.

But now I know their name.

Randy and Everyone

An interesting addendum to this very meaningful topic> The International Society of American Magicians organization has a program whereby Magicians are encouraged to conduct informal interviews with local "old timers" and visually record same. These interviews may then be forwarded to the S.A.M. headquarters and archived there in an organized fashion for the benefit of current and future generations.

The S.A.M. should really publicize this program more...

Julie

Howdy Julie!

Thank you for the information you've posted as it is very important. This should and will get further attention by and for the right people. Not to worry.


As an addendum to my initial post, I'd also like to express to this community one of my new requirements for Greatness in the field of magic. This is my rule of measurement applied to others and serves my own purpose and has been shaped by personal experience in dealing with so called Professionals. It will certainly have it's advocates while causing others to jump in here and disagree.

Not everyone is a natural born teacher but you could at least try! Imagine the hurdles the student might have.

I'm at a point of development in my life where a performer's greatness and skillful demonstration is only part of my experience and intent behind having been an audience member. If I come to see you perform, it's not an accident, a conincidence, nor the fact that someone gave me a free ticket to the show. I'm in a learning and developing stage which is whittling away and breathing life into a work in progress.

Too late to continue the thanks for those who've past - they are dead.

Many "Pros" forget, after preaching the importance of being liked by your audience, that the same reality applies to your interaction with magicians as well. Many of them, some reading this now, truley don't care about that either. Some of them are considered "Greats" today. Enjoy the ride I guess. Someday you'll be pushing up daisies too, and no, I probably won't have anything to say about you.

For those who are still around, no matter what you do in magic, you are not great in my eyes if you didn't offer to teach those who sought with a trusty and earnest heart. In fact, I probably don't like you at all.

So if someone is not useful to you, but is simply a great artist pursuing his own vision, you won't appreciate or like them?

It is this attitude that artists "owe" the art form or other artists that bothers me. It shows a lack of appreciation for those who do care enough about their art to teach. They do not "owe" it to anyone to teach. They do it because they get something out of it personally, or because they feel they owe it to their own mentors and want to improve the art.

But I don't think it is right for those who are learning to take the attitude that their teachers "owe" them help, or that they have any kind of "right" to the secrets and methods of the advanced artists.

I see the lack of respect and strong sense of entitlement of so many young and beginning performers that has caused the pros to begin a retreat from teaching and publishing.

It is often not worth the fight to be heard on boards such as this. Many magic greats who frequent these boards and do not post, refuse to post because of the lack of respect, deference, and interest, and the harsh argumentativeness of the other less experienced, less knowledgeable people on the board.

I have talked with many of magic's greatest thinkers who think posting on these boards to be a waste of time, with any serious attempt to talk about magic theory, methodology or performance torn to tatters by neophytes--performers who have not even made a name for themselves yet--who just want to argue and play the devils advocate to show off.

This is fine, and people have a right to do whatever they want on a board like this. But I happen to know that there are many truly famous magicians who read these threads and never post.

However, if more respect and a more grateful tone were exhibited, I think you would find many more of them willing to add their experience to the mix.

Whit, I always have loved ya! I knew I could count on you to say what I feel here:




I sincerely hope you weren't directing that at me. Over the last 3 years, once in a very long while, I've been guilty of having said something controversial, but the above description of yours is NOT the way I want to be perceived.


They already have retreated Whit. Many of them are gone but still alive. This is what upsets me and I wasn't even there. If I were, I would of defended such performers against the ignorant stone casting idiots. I don't know what their experineces might have been with the disrespecting, youthful, and beginning performers, but the majority have retreated.

Also note in my first post above that I agreed with you in that they owe no one anything:




Blame my own ignorance but I tend to like those who did take a chance on me rather than those who've retreated.






I have never treated such accomplished people with such disrespect. However, I have seen and suffered their absence because they hold such thoughts to be true. A darn shame and loss for no one but myself. But at least they are tucked away and remain safe and happy.


Whit, you are a good example of an accomplished talent that, with scars and a few battle stories, comes forward to help others. I don't mean to put you on the spot or embarras you but for those who don't know, here's a couple of noteworthy things about you:

1. Been involved in magic over 40 years
2. Winner of major magic awards (I think you've picked them all up already!)
3. Founder of Schools For Scoundrels teaching classes at the Magic Castle
4. Vice President - The Magic Castle

And on and on and on....there's a thousand more but with just that you haven't "retreated"! With a professional and family life, you are still there from time to time, whenever possible, to guide or teach those who seek, with an earnest desire to improve on themselves as perfomers.

I mentioned a few of those accomplishments because they stand as true as the fact that if a serious student of the art contacts you, you are there to help within reason. You don't owe them anything now or ever but you do your best to share what you know and whatever products you offer for sale have been unanimously considered top of the line.







Good! I could only hope, and I sincerely mean this, that they would know some of us students of the art have no part in anything that has caused them to close their doors forever. Maybe, just maybe, one of us could get through.


Not all of us were part of the mob that transgressed them! I regret these losses.

Whit, you are 100% correct and expressed my suspicion and sentiments when you said many of them have retreated *POOF!* just like a good magic trick.


Posted: Jun 27, 2006 7:25pm
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Whit,

I didn't mean to be disrespectful, but you did ask me a question I didn't address in my last post:




I did fail to clarify that I only referred to those I've sought out. I've never given such consideration to or sought out those who can't be of use to me within this specifici pursuit. The rest are doing great at being "Greats"? Everyone of them adding rooms to that House of Magic that our beloved Eugene Burger (one of our greatest philosphers of magic) speaks of and other artforms. No problem. I love them too. Incidentally, I'm going to see the Peking Acrobats next week. I'm a real sucker for this sort of stuff but have no desire to do what they do. Actually the thought of me even trying cracks me up! Oh my God! My d*** back! I will be one of the most grateful, enthusiastically applauding, and loudest supporters in that audience that evening. BRAVO! BRAVO! BRAVO! They are, to me, great performers and I do, in fact, see where you were coming from.

I sure hope any greats in magic who come across this topic will realize this is not as much an attack on anyone as it is the heartfelt sentiments of a sadened student. Some of us do miss them. It won't change anything but I feel compelled to apologize for any of the ingrates who caused them to flee.

I may be crazy but haven't lost my mind nor my ongoing and open pursuit of nurturing the willing relations with "GREATS" who can teach me something.

Not that I got into magic for it, but if I never become one of the greats of magic, you can be sure of one thing, my love for the art was even greater.

I wasn't popping off on you, Randy. I know that you are a respectful and serious worker.

Just wanted to use your post as a starting point about why some of the better magicians are finding it harder to share their knowledge and experience.

There is an old saying: "When the student is ready, the master will appear."

It's been like that for me both in music and in magic. Whit may not remember this, but a long time ago, he gave me some pointers on the Card in Wallet routine.

When a magician is at the stage of his career that he is moving around a lot, climbing the ladder, so to speak, he may not have time to do much mentoring. But most of them, when they have found the time to conduct either classes or sessions, have been willing to help serious students.

One of the big problems is finding students that are not only capable, but serious. If I have been asked to help someone, and all he can do for the session is tell me how wonderful he is, without showing me anything wonderful, I tend not to want to do much mentoring. But if someone really wants help with something, I'm more than willing to share.

Two great observations by two great names!

Whit mentions the harsh reality that those deserving of respect and curteosy have been mistreated and understandably and righteously walked away.

I just remembered an old topic of mine titled "Does the trick come with your daughter"? in which I asked others what they would want or expect in the way of treatment had they been a inventor of magic effects or a Guest of Honor.

This topic of mine came about as a result of the shameless questions being asked of magic inventors and guests alike. Particularly upsetting were comments and questions coming from spineless, no avatar (picture), no profile, no information posting trolls. Just hateful, jealous, disrespecting, non-contributing animals.

The questions or ill-treatment I speak of can be found all over this site and the internet in general. I'll put it this way, the questions asked by some of the characters and the way they treated giving and talented magicians is not what they'd have the guts to do had they been before them in person.

Then again, such people don't take themselves or magic serious anyway. And thinking in terms of whether their online treatment of others is just as they would do in person is not even a consideration.

Check out the very few responses here:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=27


Bill reminds everyone that the student must be ready before the right mentor or Pro will give advice. This is very true and fair enough.


Finally, I was waiting for written permission to post part of a message from someone I consider great. Many others do as well. It's taken from a recent message regarding an effect he's been helping me with. In response to my sincere and ongoing gratitude, he messaged a lengthy response but I quote a very small portion here regarding his refusal to be as public as some of us would like him to be:

"Randy I have very few friends in magic. I have found even less that I can trust. And even less that I can teach. Do you go where you are mishandled? Of course not and neither do I"

I wish I could but folks, there really isn't much more I can say but sorry.

I know of quite a few older, more experienced magicians who have gone off the idea of teaching us young whipper snappers because of the lack of respect for the process of passing down down information that has arisen amongst both 'pupils' and producers of magic.

So many 'teachers' putting out books, DVDS and course to make a quick buck.
So many 'students' buying secrets with mum's credit cards.

Bill - if you were in my area, I would be ringing your doorbell day and night to be my mentor.

Nicholas. I'm sure I would do what I could to help you.

One fellow who is somewhat misunderstood, I think, is Roger Klause. I've known Roger since the two of us were in our teens. Roger is so far inside that it's hard to remember that he is also a heck of a teacher.

More than 20 years ago, I approached Roger with a problem. I had been working on a particular sleight, but it just wasn't happening for me. It was something in Erdnase. So, I asked him how much he would charge to teach me how to do it correctly. His first response surprised me. He asked, "What do you want to use it for?" This is a very important question. If you don't have a use for a sleight, you will never be any good at it, because you won't use it, and it won't have a context.

So I told him my idea. He said, "That's valid." Then he said, "Evidently, you have been trying to learn it from Erdnase, and something just isn't working right. Show me what you have learned." So I showed him. In less than 15 minutes he corrected the errors I had in the sleight. Then he said, "Next year, I want you to show it to me and I don't want to see it." I told him that I would do it.

Well, it's a sleight I use all the time now. I've worked out several different applications for it, and I find it indispensable.

And he didn't charge me anything to teach me what I was doing wrong.

So I owe him a lot of thanks.

There are a lot of people in the business who are just like that.

Fred Kaps was another. I never met him. But one of my friends want backstage to visit him after the last show he did at a magic convention (possibly the last show he ever did.) He told him how much he enjoyed his work and how much he had admired his magic. Fred asked him if there was anything he liked in particular. Ray told him he really liked his "Smoking the Thumb" routine. Fred asked if he would like to see the gimmick. Ray nearly passed out! So Fred showed him the gimmick. Then he gave it to him. All because Ray was a nice guy.

Sometimes all it takes is a little respect and courtesy. Sometimes all you have to do is ask nicely.

RandyStewart- Thanks for taking the time and effort to construct such a well thought out topic. So far, it has been very thought provoking for me. I find myself reflecting back to my early teens-

As someone who has never really had a mentor (or a least the right one- meaning one who could have really helped me with my development in an artistic and technical sense) or spent any significant time with the "right teacher"-- I was forced to carve a path out on my own.

And it has, I think given me a some unique perspectives and approaches.


All I can say for now is that I really appreciate all the time and effort of the more experienced/ more knowledgeable/ helpful "pro's" who DO contribute to this forum.

It is NOT a waste of time! Good things do come from it, you guys are helping to elevate the art of magic (you know who you are)

In the last year and a half, you have been more helpful to me than you know-

More to follow...

Mark

Because of the DVD/video in magic today. Mentorship is rapidly becoming a thing of the past. Back when I was young and just getting into magic the only way that a person could learn magic was from books or other magicians.

With the NEED to learn from other magicians comes the NEED to respect other magicians.

As I grew older in magic I started to go to lectures. Again a NEED to learn from a respected teacher of magic with the NEED to respect other magicians and their secrets.

Now we have video and DVD products and magicians that can learn from a DVD/video. This is both great and bad at the same time. I think on the one hand it is great that I can load a DVD into a player and watch the late ED Marlo (an old friend) and Jack Pyle on the DVD the Cardician. And learn and be inspired from his work. And know that others that did not have the luck or been old enough, or able to meet a wonderful person like Ed Marlo or Jack Pyle - as they can get to know them through this DVD/video.

I love the fact that I have video of my Dad and my own kids can see my Dad on video and this video of my Dad is handed down to their kids and so on. As with video of Jack Gwynne, Charlie Miller and others. My kids who are into magic will get to see this as will their kids - and so on.

From that point of view DVD/video is fantastic.

On the other hand it takes out the human part of learning and the NEED to meet magicians and respect the mentor as people should give one another respect in magic. Instead of going to lectures people can learn in their own home and that has little of the NEED to meet and respect other magicians.

The attitude of I own this DVD has replaced the need to meet other magicians and learn magic like I did when I was young. The old world of your not entitled to know all my secrets has been replaced by the world of I own this DVD and can do what I want with it.

In magic it is the people in magic are what is important, not the secrets, it is the people that do the magic. The fact that WE need each other in order for magic to be passed on to the next generation of great magicians.

That is what is missing in today's DVD/video world is the very human NEED of being respected as the NEED to pass it on continues to the young in a respectful graceful way.

Some of it depends on what they do AFTER they get the first few DVD's. If they are like some of the kiddies on the Penguin board or Magic Bunny, they become video critics. If they are serious students, they look for teachers.

Yes, if I had found all I needed within such recorded media, I would of never begun this topic.

Actually I only own two magic DVDs. One is Fred Kaps and the other is an instructional DVD that came with my Dancing Hank. The Kaps DVD I actually had to go buy a DVD player to watch. That was just a few months ago. I'd seen such instructionals on say VHS and over the years but what I'm looking for doesn't come in such media - no matter how wonderful or advanced.

What I seek is experienced feedback and suggestion on how to improve on what turns me on. I have the Internet to view many of the greats in action and I have. In fact, there's more magic video clips (amateur and pro) out there than one has time to watch. A little interaction with someone who knows what they are talking about is what I prefer.

I'm too far past the stage of collecting every video that comes along. I guess some of the youngin's or as Uncle Vinnie called them, "yootz" would be content with that as much as they would be with cybersex. But neither of those suits my style or needs.

I do get help from a couple of people who know their stuff these days. While good mentors/teachers claim a good student is hard to come by, I know, as a student, good teachers are hard to come by as well. Well at least the willing teachers - that's most of what sparked my initial post.

Maybe I need to get out more.

Maybe I need to offer good cold hard cash (I have plenty of it) for tutoring in specific areas. Let's not forget that WITHOUT USURA THERE IS NO ART! Then again, Bill mentioned his story of offering to pay and turned out all he had to do was ask nicely. Asking nicely is never a problem with me. Perhaps I've asked the wrong people? Perhaps they truley had nothing to contribute? Yes, perhaps.

Maybe I need to do as cinemagician suggested and carve my own path....

Well I have a few things to rehearse again. Been working on it since 7am again, for the last couple of months and all day. That I know has to happen no matter what else does or does not. The video camera comes in real handy.

Much love and best wishes to all great teachers and students alike.

One of the really great things about magic is that - to a magician the secrets have little value like a move has little value unless the magician has a use for it. The other great thing about magic is to learn to do it well the student must put their time in.

Paul LePaul once said there was no substitute for skill and I would add to that - no substitute for skill and the experience of performing on a regular basis in front of a live audience to really hone an act or a show.

Later!

That's an excellent point Glenn. There is no hope for the student who has not put the years of practice into it. Without it there is certainly no hope of achieving any skill level.


Posted: Jun 28, 2006 9:24pm
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OH! I just had to share this e-mail message I got moments ago.

The sender tells me to maybe do as my signature reads. You can read it for yourself. Well, that would be some input and another point of view on matters at hand.

Not sure if sender was being mean-spirited or truley trying to help but my immediate reaction was a little offense but there may be more, much more, truth to the suggestion. Oh man. LOL Just a little more Food For Thought huh? We'll do.

Thank you

If that is exactly what the sender said -- "do as your signature block reads" -- then perhaps he should take a course in English. Your signature block doesn't say to DO anything. It's just an analysis of a point of view.

Right you are Bill. As I said, I'm not sure if it's supposed to be funny, mean, heartfelt, or confused. I don't care to anger the sender or anyone else but I can only allow for some margin of misunderstanding.

But I thank them anyway.

This reminds me of something that happened in a philosophy class. The professor went up to the blackboard and wrote "Walk With Light." Then he asked, "What does this mean?"

The explanations were marvelous, some quite spiritual. Others were more mysterious. Finally he said, "Nobody asked the most important question. This question is 'Where does it come from?' I saw it this morning when I was getting ready to cross the street."

That is funny and yes, they should of asked where the light came from. I can already imagine some of the classroom's deepest explanations.


As we've learned from a couple of members, there are several reasons why some students and teachers of magic have difficulty finding each other.

It appears many successful magicians have refused to participate in public discussion boards such as this.
Many of them have feel they or their material has been mistreated.
Bill mentions the fact that the student must be ready and that finding students who are serious is rare.
Glenn mentioned the lack of respect as well "With the NEED to learn from other magicians comes the NEED to respect other magicians.
"

We may add more to the list but this can be a starting point in understanding why some are not accessible. Let it also be a reminder to any neophyte who finds comfort and power sitting in the comfort of their own home and PC, these are people you are dealing with. You may be using a machine to communicate with them, but THEY are people. Don't confuse the two.