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JasonEngland
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Quote:
I don't think anyone can throw a controlled dice roll in craps with legit dice. This is real hype.


Quote:
On 2006-07-04 11:02, Dannydoyle wrote:
Since the diamonds on the end of the table, not possible in a casino, no matter how many sources or terms anyone gives you.

On page 274 of his Casino Game Protection, Steve Forte wrote: "Yes, it is unquestionably possible to control the dice on a regulation casino crap table."

He then spends the next 8 or so pages explaining several different types of controlled dice shots as used by hustlers over the past several decades.

Danny, on page 279 he explains a few methods that the hustlers have been using to defeat the backwall all these years. Here's just one: don't touch it.

Jason


Posted: Jul 4, 2006 3:01pm
-------------------------------------
Quote:
On 2006-07-04 12:44, Vandy Grift wrote:
Danny makes a legit point about the difficulty of controlling shots of off the pyramids.

Actually, Danny missed the point regarding controlled shots and the pyramids on the back wall. The hustlers that shoot these shots usually have no intention of making contact with the back wall, or they make very slight incidental contact as the spinning die comes to a stop. At slow enough speeds, the die can even carom off the back wall and still hold up.

Now, if Danny is referring to dice setters who are making no effort to throw the dice short and think they can control the dice even though they hit the backwall with force, then he's correct. But he so far hasn't made that distinction between the two types of controlled dice shooters. He's coloring both groups with the same "it's impossible" brush.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
Dannydoyle
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Jason miss the back wall consistently and they will disqualify the throw plain and simple.

The throw must hit the back wall.

Sorry but I am right.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
JasonEngland
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Danny,

Your knowledge of casino rules appears adequate. Your knowledge of how dice crews "get it on" is not.

You are correct that if a shooter were to lob a die a foot short of the backwall every time it wouldn't take long for the casino to tell him to hit the backwall or it will be called a "no roll."

But that's not what happens by a long shot. A crew will sometimes emply several turns to prevent the dealers, the stickman and the boxman or floorperson from seeing the complete throw from start to finish. For one, the dealers are supposed to only be watching their side of the table if they're doing their job correctly. That takes care of one dealer. The stick can be blocked or partially blocked by asking for change or placing a proposition bet, the box is busy trying to watch everything and is often distracted just trying to keep up with all the things going on at once.

Add to this the fact that the dice aren't controlled every time. Forte writes: "No scooter can slide the dice roll after roll (only possible with 'The Shot'), so what typically happens is that the dice are thrown legitimately on most rolls, but scooted every fourth or fifth roll, trying to kill the combination, if the action and attention from the pit will fade it."

On top of this let's add the fact that on occasion the dice do make incidental contact with the backwall! Steve writes: "First to the backwall. I've seen numerous shots where the controlled die was thrown with just enough force to barely contact the backwall. It hit the wall softly, leaned towards the wall, and then fell back on the desired number. I have also seen a sliding, spinning die catch the inside corner at just the right angle and hug the bottom of the backwall like taking a corner on a roller coaster, preventing it from tumbling and therefore, attaining the desired result."

In the next paragraph he writes: "I've talked with the best scooters about the wall. No one has ever attempted to master these specific controls as described. It just happens. Scooters aim for the corner and have no intention of contacting the backwall" (emphasis mine -- JE). He ends the paragraph with, "It is definitely possible to control one die even after hitting the backwall."

So let's see here, the casino crew doesn't get to see the whole throw if the turns are working properly, a single die is only controlled once every four or five throws, and sometimes, the die does hit the backwall and still holds up. I'm beginning to think that maybe, just maybe Steve is right that controlled shots are possible in a casino under the proper conditions.

Of course, Steve's never spoken with a real expert like you Danny, who would no doubt set him straight on such matters.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
Steve V
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Ya don't pull on Supermans cape, you don't spit in the wind, you don't pull the mask of the ol' Lone Ranger and.....
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Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2006-07-04 15:44, Dannydoyle wrote:
Jason miss the back wall consistently and they will disqualify the throw plain and simple.

The throw must hit the back wall.

Sorry but I am right.

The shooter has to make the attempt to hit the back wall. Barring any unusual circumstances the roll is almost always called. The stickman is taught in school to encourage the shooter to try to hit the backwall on the next roll after a particularly weak previous attempt.

When these shots are thrown for real the random die contacts the backwall very aggresively while the controlled die lands just short. When done expertly it looks like the real deal. Sure, if done repeatedly while being burned it'd be obvious, but it doesn't work like that.

Along with the use of the turns as Jason mentioned, controlled dice shots have been employed successfully in casinos. It's also worth noting that the boxman position is going by the wayside anymore, making it even easier for a competent crew to employ a scoot.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
iamslow
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Quote:
On 2006-07-04 15:44, Dannydoyle wrote:
Jason miss the back wall consistantly and they will disqualify the throw plain and simple.

The throw MUST HIT THE BACK WALL.

Sorry but I am right.

Yeah you are right, but all you need is one roll make a ton of dough...
"Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
JasonEngland
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I used to think like this too Mr. Z.

However, in light of recent posts by Dannydoyle, my eyes have been opened.

You see, once those little diamonds are on the table, controlled dice shots are "not possible in a casino, no matter how many sources or terms anyone gives you."

You see Mr. Z, the world is a black and white place. If you don't hit the backwall every time, your rolls will be invalidated every time. This clearly makes controlled dice shots in a modern casino impossible. Danny has watched "dozzens" of demonstrations of controlled dice shots, in every imaginable situation, and he has "never seen one pan out as said. Not even close." Remember: The throw MUST HIT THE BACK WALL.

I guess that settles it.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
Dannydoyle
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Ok you guys are so right. There are hundreds of crews taking millions of dollars every day and the casinos are none the wiser. Yep I am wrong.

Let me ask you then Jason oh wise one. Since controling dice is NOT against the law. Which I believe we can agree it is indeed not. Then why are there not many crews doing it?

Let me ask both of you "experts" something. Ever work a craps table? Ever work the floor? Box position? Security? Survalance? Heck even the cage? Seems to me most of your knowlege comes from some books. If I am wrong a whole hearted appology from me to you.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Unknown419
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I just posted some of my dice teachers at work to show that control dice shots are possible and does work.

Controlled Dice Shots are not a fairy tale.

See Doc's Dice Teacher After Robbing Scarne Said "Now Run Tell Dat"...(And Friends)


Respectfully,

Doc
Dannydoyle
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Jason nobody said EVERY time. If you want to pick apart semantics then fine.

Mr Z pointed out how it must be done.

Go ahead talk semantics it is a better arguement than the one you make.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
JasonEngland
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Quote:
On 2006-07-04 18:33, Dannydoyle wrote:
Ok you guys are so right. There are hundreds of crews taking millions of dollars every day and the casinos are none the wiser. Yep I am wrong.



Danny,
This straw-man of yours won't fly here. These guys are too smart for that. No, there are not "hundreds of crews taking millions of dollar every day." But that doesn't invalidate the existence of real controlled shots now does it? Afte all, there are not hundreds of crews taking millions each day at shuffle-tracking either, but shuffle-tracking certainly exists. Nice try.

Quote:
Let me ask you then Jason oh wise one. Since controling dice is NOT against the law. Which I believe we can agree it is indeed not. Then why are there not many crews doing it?


First of all, controlling the dice the way Mr. Z and I have been describing it (and Forte too) may very well be against the law. Line 7 of the Nevada Regulatory Statutes 465.070 says: "To manipulate, with the intent to cheat, any component of a gaming device in a manner contrary to the designed and normal operational purpose for the component...."

I think a good DA could certainly use that line to prosecute a case, regardless of whether or not it's been done. It would probably be a tough case to prosecute though.

But the second part to your question is simple: Because it's really difficult! That explains why there aren't "hundreds" of crews (or even dozens) doing this sort of thing. The existence of a concept or move isn't dependent on a lot of people doing it. You only need one guy working a scam to know it exists.

Quote:
Let me ask both of you "experts" something. Ever work a craps table? Ever work the floor? Box position? Security? Survalance? Heck even the cage? Seems to me most of your knowlege comes from some books. If I am wrong a whole hearted appology from me to you.


You owe Mr. Z an apology. He's dealt before. I've never worked in any of those capacities. I'm wondering how that is relevent? Yes, most of my knowledge does come from books! You say that like it's a bad thing. You know, I've never flown an airplane, performed open-heart surgury, or dismantled a bomb. But I have it on good authority that those things can be done. In short, I listen to the experts in a given field. Steve's credentials speak for themselves.

Who are you again?

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
Dannydoyle
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MrZ then again I appologise to your dealing ability. Sincerly.

Jason it seems to me that when your knowlege comes from books and books alone, then at some point it is rather limited. IF you havn't been the stickman how do you know how easy it is to distract him? Unless your saying you have been on the other side and distracted him.

Book knowlege alone is admirable. I don't short you for that please do not think me disrespectfull. I mean no disrespect. BUT it is limiting. Point is when you have only book knowlege, then indeed your doomed to only repeating others opinions, as opposed to developing your own from experience.

If I am wrong I am wrong, happens a LOT that is how I get to right. BUT every opinion I have is baised on a LOT more experience than books. It is a combination of the 2.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
JasonEngland
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Quote:
On 2006-07-04 18:52, Dannydoyle wrote:
Jason nobody said EVERY time. If you want to pick apart semantics then fine.

Mr Z pointed out how it must be done.

Go ahead talk semantics it is a better arguement than the one you make.


Actually, you used the terms "not possible" and "never." I simply pointed out circumstances where it is possible.

We've had this discussion before about specificity and precision in writing. I write what I mean. You make broad and sweeping statements that often have a kernel of truth to them, but then you couch them in language that makes them seem absolute when they're not. The net effect of this is that it's misleading to people that take you at your word.

If you tell me it's impossible to cheat at roulette then I'm going to step up and say you're wrong. There are dozens of ways to attempt it. If you say it's "difficult" to cheat at roulette I'll probably keep quiet, since that's pretty much the truth.

You claimed that the diamonds and backwall prevented controlled dice shots. In an absolute sense, you're wrong, though they do prevent a lot of people from controlling their shots.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
Dannydoyle
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So your problem is with semantics and you work yourself up into a lather about it?

Why not just say "hey stupid Always, Never, and other absolutes are pretty idiotic to use unless your speaking of gravity.". It would be easier.

So here goes. The diamonds make it an extraordinarily difficult proposition to use controled dice throws in a casino. That is as a matter of fact their function.
So much so that few even bother to try it.

The other contention is that the second method you mentioned had little effect on outcome.

Better?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2006-07-04 18:59, Dannydoyle wrote:
MrZ then again I appologise to your dealing ability. Sincerly.

Jason it seems to me that when your knowlege comes from books and books alone, then at some point it is rather limited. IF you havn't been the stickman how do you know how easy it is to distract him? Unless your saying you have been on the other side and distracted him.

Book knowlege alone is admirable. I don't short you for that please do not think me disrespectfull. I mean no disrespect. BUT it is limiting. Point is when you have only book knowlege, then indeed your doomed to only repeating others opinions, as opposed to developing your own from experience.

If I am wrong I am wrong, happens a LOT that is how I get to right. BUT every opinion I have is baised on a LOT more experience than books. It is a combination of the 2.


Well it's a small world and we all know each other. Weigh that one over a bit.

I think you're getting into really murky territory with this "experience" regarding casino cheating. Forte can do probably close to 100 different mucks yet he's never used any under fire. I suppose that would discredit him immediately on that subject, right?

Practical experience is crucial but when it comes to a subject like this there are some caveats. The analogy of a homicide detective who's never committed a murder is a good one and applicable here. Most of the moves that we discuss as lovers of sleight of hand were long ago antiquated in the world of modern cheating. In the old days casino surveillance consisted of former crossroaders patrolling the catwalks--nowadays no one with any sort of record like that can get a job in the sky.

It's been my experience that the folks who work in the gaming industry aren't all that different from magicians, as a group. There are few truly knowledgeable people, and the real treasures are the old-timers who're passing away with greater frequency anymore. Some may be expert in one area but clueless in other subjects. I've fooled 30-year casino bosses and gaming regulators with standard moves that would be immediately recognizable to the average card man, and this is not to toot my own horn but to illustrate a point. Some of my best friends are dealers and they're equally clueless when it comes to this sort of thing. Most current gamers have never even seen the standard moves done live, and their "experience" is limited to watching old surveillance tapes and encountering the most petty of thefts on the floor.

At the end of the day, I think you're being far too presumptious. All of the true experts got to where they were through extensive research, be it through books, personal relationships, and applied experience.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
Dannydoyle
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Problem with the cop analogy (which I actually was one by the way) is to investigate is a different skill than to commit the murder. So actually it is nowhere near the same thing.

I do see your point BUT at some point if you don't have actual experience your lacking something. At some point you CAN gain that ground yes I agree. Forte I guess dosn't do at least mucks under fire. Fine. I am not saying it discredits him immediatly but it does taint the knowlege some.

I look at it like a teacher of law who has never been in a courtroom but will teach how to be in a courtroom. How can he do it? It is done a lot, but to me it lacks something.

NOTHING to disrespect anyone without experience, just saying goes a lot further than ONLY book knowlege. I said it before. BUT at some point it helps to actually know from experience as well as books.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
ronfour
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The analogy of the homicide detective
is interesting. His expertise is in solving crimes, not committing them. If I wanted a crime solved I would pick the one with experience in solving crimes. How can you judge the value of experience, if you have never experienced it?
Craig Krisulevicz
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Speaking of all this, it's a shame the crews won't be able to work in AC tomorrow morning. By order of the governor of NJ, the casinos are being shut down temporarily. Ouch.
Who is John Galt?
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2006-07-04 19:53, Dannydoyle wrote:
Problem with the cop analogy (which I actually was one by the way) is to investigate is a different skill than to commit the murder. So actually it is nowhere near the same thing.

I do see your point BUT at some point if you don't have actual experience your lacking something. At some point you CAN gain that ground yes I agree. Forte I guess dosn't do at least mucks under fire. Fine. I am not saying it discredits him immediatly but it does taint the knowlege some.

I look at it like a teacher of law who has never been in a courtroom but will teach how to be in a courtroom. How can he do it? It is done a lot, but to me it lacks something.

NOTHING to disrespect anyone without experience, just saying goes a lot further than ONLY book knowlege. I said it before. BUT at some point it helps to actually know from experience as well as books.


Steve learned from the best hold-out men alive in his younger years and can perform the mucks better than anyone. Moreover, he knows the how and when to use such moves, if he wanted to. I'd say Steve is unquestionaly an expert on the subject of mucking, despite never actually using it. I don't know how that "taints" it at all, aside from the fact that he never employed the most risky form of cheating in his playing days.

Back to the subject of the thread, Jason was citing information from Casino Game Protection, yet you felt the need to call his own credentials into question when that had absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. That's a fallacy all too many magicians commit when it comes to the subject of gambling.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
Dannydoyle
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Well Jason was explaining how it could be done with controled throws agains the pyramids. Then he explained how you would distract a dealer.

Ok regulations everyone knows great. BUT when you speak of the actual throws, how to distract the dealers, experience is what counts.

I have no intention of debating Steve Forte's credentials. It is irrelivant.

As for the cop analogy as I said ronfour, investigation is a skill spacific and different from the comission of the crime. What we are speaking of is telling others how to use a spacific skill. The same skill which you are speaking of.

The cop thing is 180 degrees different.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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