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Dannydoyle
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Did I make the reference to homicide cops?

did I compare it to the 4 minute mile?

Read again both times it was Jason. THOSE arguements for support of their idea are completly wrong. Is that my fault?

I must say that I am of the opinion that if you have never actually DONE the thing you are claiming knowlege of at some point you are simply a story teller telling other peoples stories.

If this makes me stubborn, then yep you got me I am. Lets use the Doctor analogy someone eluded to earlier, not me. IF you had to get a life or death operation and had to choose between a guy who had learned it from soley ecperience and a guy who had read every book, heard every story, but never cut into a living breathing person before, well which would you think has a better chance of saving your life? Personally I am going with the guy who has done it before.

Now if we can find a guy who is BOTH then wow we really got something.

Am I so far off base to think that you need practical experience in a field? Is that so out of wack today? Obviously it seems to be.

Jason is such a stickler for semantics shouldn't he precede every post with "well I have never done it but from what I have read you can do this"?

All I said was if you have never actually "distracted the box man" then how can you tell others how to do it? Is that so out of line? My gosh I don't get it.

Juvinile attempts to find out the credability of those making arguements and telling me how wrong I am.

News flash. I worked survalance. To distract that many people dependably is not as easy as they make it sound. Jason started speaking in absolutes also.

Anyone know of the people the casino has walking the floor posing as patrons? People designed to spot teams? They are taught to LOOK for the "big player" in Blackjack, watch for those who are "Wonging" in. And for what your speaking of. It is the equivilant of distracting the "air marshall" on a plane today.

See when you don't have experience in what you are claiming you know how to do, you only tell old stories and can't account for this phenemenon. Is it in every casino? Heck no. Is it in most of them? Heck no.

They showed how under very spacific circumstances I am wrong. Just as easy to show under how less spacific circumstances I am right. And I am being juvinile?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2006-07-06 16:12, Dannydoyle wrote:

Anyone know of the people the casino has walking the floor posing as patrons? People designed to spot teams? They are taught to LOOK for the "big player" in Blackjack, watch for those who are "Wonging" in. And for what your speaking of. It is the equivilant of distracting the "air marshall" on a plane today.



You give pit personnel way more credit than they deserve. A swing in the bet spread is what they look for, and when you start talking serious money you're dealing with credit players who generally have a history at said club. Thus, this info is available to the pit staff and with the advent of an increased use of technology in player-tracking, ascertaining who might be counting is all the more easier. Successful counters and teams are exceedingly rare occurance nowadays, if I may boldly say so.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
tommy
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Well maybe you can distract the floor staff but what about the eye. Is it not their job to look out for all this stuff. don't the make sure that both dice have hit the alligator. They must look at the dice otherwise the dealers will work with a shooter and simply miscall the spots.
Forte by the way was speaking in casino context above as he was talking to casino staff at the dice dealer site.
Anthing is possible but I think the best advice with this is, forget about it.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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OK MrZ funny I was actually talking about survalance personel not pit staff.

You missed the point. But that is ok.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2006-07-06 18:04, tommy wrote:
Well maybe you can distract the floor staff but what about the eye. Is it not their job to look out for all this stuff. don't the make sure that both dice have hit the alligator. They must look at the dice otherwise the dealers will work with a shooter and simply miscall the spots.
Forte by the way was speaking in casino context above as he was talking to casino staff at the dice dealer site.
Anthing is possible but I think the best advice with this is, forget about it.



Craps is the most difficult of all the casino games to observe from a surveillance perspective. From a wide angle view it's extremely difficult to observe the spots on the dice, and the amount of time it takes to pan the camera from the player's hand to the end of the table, the shot's already over and done with.

The indestructable casino surveillance system is another Vegas myth that permeates pop culture. It just doesn't work like that. You're given the impression that it's an army of guys watching banks of monitors looking for every move, but in reality the main role of casino surveillance on a day to day basis is handling player disputes. With the advent of 24/7 recording, they have the capability to go back and look at nearly anything that occured within the property, provided that there was a camera on the game at that given moment, but in almost all cases you're dealing with the event after the fact and are attempting to reconstruct what actually happened. Anyone who's worked the pit and had to call upstairs will tell you the word you'll most often hear from them is "inconclusive." Big scams are a very rare occurance besides.

I'm well aware of the DiceDealer.net Q&A, tommy.

I'm getting a strong impression that most here are having a hard time grasping the concept of a controlled shot in a casino dice game. You think it's obvious that only one die is hitting the backwall, but you have to seen it done to appreciate it, and there many other factors that make it work. First of all only one die is ever controlled--the other is allowed to roll randomly. It's a percentage move. It's also worth noting that when we discuss "controlled shots" in the casino we're almost always talking about scoot or slide shots, where the die is slid flat on the layout. It may seem like an obvious ploy, and it is, but the best can throw it with the most natural of actions, and it's the use of turns that makes the scam ultimately work. The dice are only scooted every few rolls also.

The ability to throw the dice a few inches off the table is an incredibly difficult and rare skill, but it has been done. It has been referred to as "The Shot," and is referenced quite a bit in CGP and the excerpts that Jason provided. The die is thrown 2-4 inches off the layout and maintains lateral control, hits the layout flat and thus doesn't turn over. In expert hands the die can bounce and skip, giving a great illusion of tumbling, yet still maintain control. Forte often mentions the best controlled shot artist he ever knew, known as "Mr. SA" who won over a million bucks his first year in Vegas all by himself, with no turns.

The move's been around for ages and was the type of thing the best dice men would resort to when they were getting a bit of steam. Scarne refers to it as the Casino Dice Table Control Shot in his works.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2006-07-06 18:24, Dannydoyle wrote:
OK MrZ funny I was actually talking about survalance personel not pit staff.

You missed the point. But that is ok.


Not my fault if you can't be clear enough. Smile

So you meant shills, gotcha.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
tommy
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Z

I have only seen Forte with Swail at Swails site doing a dice shot working together. I don't have Fortes Dice tape. I have only ever had one bet at a craps table and I never have thrown the dice. I don't even stand there and watch the guys play, that's because I know I would be tempted to play and I know I nothing about the game. The only time I walk over to the craps is if some guy is there who owes me money. I do however know a dice dealer and what you said about the eye has aroused my interest in the game. Thanks.

Ok I have question: Would a dice dealer know what the eye can see? I mean I could not get the dealer to miscall the spots if the dealer thought, like I did, that eye can always see the spots.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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The eye has tough time with craps particularly. This is because there is SO much motion with the game. Blackjack and almost all other games are basically played in a quite predictable place. Money goes here, cards here, dealer sweeps and pays in this manner.

Craps just with its huge layout, number of bets, players standing right next to dealers, and a whole host of things makes it tougher to watch with the eye. Correct me if I am wrong MrZ but I believe this is what you meant.

The other thing most people would be shocked at is the number of people actually in the survalance room at any given time. Man it is so few as to be shocking to say the least.

Huge numbers of cameras, and they work great for identifying crews LATER. But ask a survalance member how many they caught in the act and it is painfully few.

When it gets to it I guess my problem is with the freequency you guys seem to think this stuff can be done. You and Jason speak as if it is happening all the time. BUT just as I didn't mean to imply it was not theoretically possible, you probably, and I am guessing here, don't mean to imply its ease.

You say it is a percentage thing. Great. But guess what? You still come out on the wrong end of percentages on some occasions.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
JasonEngland
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Quote:
On 2006-07-06 16:12, Dannydoyle wrote:
Did I make the reference to homicide cops?

did I compare it to the 4 minute mile?

Read again both times it was Jason.

It's a shame you're so confused Danny. I did not make the homicide cops ****ogy.

Jason


Posted: Jul 6, 2006 10:48pm
-------------------------------------
Quote:
On 2006-07-06 20:48, Dannydoyle wrote:

When it gets to it I guess my problem is with the frequency you guys seem to think this stuff can be done. You and Jason speak as if it is happening all the time.

Give me a single incidence where Mr. Z or I claim that this is done with any frequency. I have always been speaking about what's possible, not what's likely or common.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2006-07-06 20:48, Dannydoyle wrote:

Craps just with its huge layout, number of bets, players standing right next to dealers, and a whole host of things makes it tougher to watch with the eye. Correct me if I am wrong MrZ but I believe this is what you meant.

Not particularly, but that is also true. It's physically very difficult to ascertain the spots on the dice from a wide angle view on a camera. The other problem with recording a crap game is you can't hear what's going on, and bets are constantly being booked and pressed verbally with no procedure to really denote what's going on to the cameras.

Re: percentage thing, of course it is, but the majority of the best scams are. Just because a poker dealer may be able to run you up a good hand doesn't mean the rest of the players will give you any action for it.

We never said dice shot scams happened frequently--on the contrary, it's exceedingly rare along with most scamming. That doesn't change the fact that millions have been won by competent dice crews over the years with controlled shots.


Posted: Jul 7, 2006 12:26am
-------------------------------------
Quote:
On 2006-07-06 19:48, tommy wrote:
Z

I have only seen Forte with Swail at Swail's site doing a dice shot working together. I don't have Fortes Dice tape. I have only ever had one bet at a craps table and I never have thrown the dice. I don't even stand there and watch the guys play, that's because I know I would be tempted to play and I know I nothing about the game. The only time I walk over to the craps is if some guy is there who owes me money. I do however know a dice dealer and what you said about the eye has aroused my interest in the game. Thanks.

Ok, I have question: Would a dice dealer know what the eye can see? I mean I could not get the dealer to miscall the spots if the dealer thought, like I did, that eye can always see the spots.


They have craps in the UK? Interesting, I was under the impression it was exclusive to North America, for the most part.

Dealers could care less about surveillance's capabilities. Miscalling the dice is as "strong-armed" as it gets, and it's my understanding that when such a scam went down the whole table was in on it. The fact that you're winning money will wake up the pit and sky--that's a given.

The Forte dice tape is cool but his best dice stuff isn't on there. The shots he does on there are for private/street games, although the one is essentially the same principle as you'd use in a casino.

A gaming regulator in NY that I know attended a seminar of Steve's many years back when their Indian casino opened up, and during his craps portion of the lecture he proceeded to control a single die 8 times in a row. I know bosses and dealers who were present who still talk about it--many believers were made that day. Smile

I've never been a fan of gambling as recreation, but in my opinion craps is certainly the most exciting and fun game to play. Beats any card game, for my money...
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
ronfour
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Has anyone ever seen a live shot by a dice crew in a casino.
Dannydoyle
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Ronfour your getting to my point. Yea I have.

BUT let me agree with MrZ wholeheartedly about how exciting and fun a game craps is. It is one of the few games you get to actually handle the equipment, short of the stick that is. You have tons of bets, get to call the dice "bones" and feel more in control of your own destiny.

Who cares if it is not possible to have an actualy "advantage", (lets not argue this ok guys I mean straight play short of cheating) as a regular player. It is outright fun to have a whole table of people screaming and cheering on a roll.

Heck hitting a double down on a Blackjack dosn't seem to compare.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
iamslow
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Can anyone here actually deal the game of Craps?? Many here know OF how to scam the game, but how many people here could actually deal the game?? One thing I must say is by knowing how to deal the game, one can get a better understanding of what will work and won't work on the table.....

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG? LOL
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Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2006-07-07 15:50, iamslow wrote:
Can anyone here actually deal the game of Craps??


Yup. Don't see how that's a pre-requisite for being able to cheat it though, considering the majority of craps scams involve the actual dice.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
tommy
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Thanks. Yes they do have craps in the UK but not in all casinos. The casinos here are small and not hotels. My local casino has had craps for as long as I can remember, but now I think about it I can't recall it at another casino but I don't go to many.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
lvlew
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Mr Z said:
Craps is the most difficult of all the casino games to observe from a surveillance perspective. From a wide angle view it's extremely difficult to observe the spots on the dice, and the amount of time it takes to pan the camera from the player's hand to the end of the table, the shot's already over and done with.

The indestructable casino surveillance system is another Vegas myth that permeates pop culture. It just doesn't work like that. You're given the impression that it's an army of guys watching banks of monitors looking for every move, but in reality the main role of casino surveillance on a day to day basis is handling player disputes. With the advent of 24/7 recording, they have the capability to go back and look at nearly anything that occured within the property, provided that there was a camera on the game at that given moment, but in almost all cases you're dealing with the event after the fact and are attempting to reconstruct what actually happened. Anyone who's worked the pit and had to call upstairs will tell you the word you'll most often hear from them is "inconclusive." Big scams are a very rare occurance besides.
*******
Having worked in the casino business since the late 50's in almost every capacity,
I agree 100% with the above statement. I am (was - I'm retired now) constantly amazed at the lack of knowledge of casino personnel regarding the workings and/or security of the games that they are dealing or protecting. This is not to say that there are no knowledgeable persons there, just that the percentage is rather small. When I worked surveillance in one of Las Vegas's largest casinos the other people on my shift consisted of a couple of UNLV students, an ex-bartender, and school teacher. They knew how to run the recorders and take pictures but as to catching anything going on - 1 in a million. Nice people but ignorant as to how the games worked. They didn't even know the various pay-offs on the games that were watching.
Change of subject..... Mr.Z, when I was dealing craps our "heads-up signal" when a pretty gal walked by was to call out "skirt-alert!". Also if you dealt craps then I'm sure you know what it meant to "short-stick" a female patron. Anyone else here know what that means? Any guesses?
Bye all ----- LVLEW
iamslow
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I just actually had one of my dealers short stick this dirty that was on my table today and I made him push the dice only to the come area and it was a heavenly sight!!! Hey LVLEW, where I work, we don't use skirt alert as it is too obvious... we call out "Craps Game" instead and everyone knows as well as some of the regulars that come in...lol
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lvlew
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Iamslow said:
where I work, we don't use skirt alert as it is too obvious... we call out "Craps Game" instead and everyone knows as well as some of the regulars that come in...lol
*******
I was talking about a time long long ago. (At least it seems like that).
LVLEW
The Dowser
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Quote:
On 2006-07-06 16:12, Dannydoyle wrote:

News flash. I worked survalance. To distract that many people dependably is not as easy as they make it sound.

This assertion makes me suspect the length of your "survalance" experience ... as most surveillance tech's would know how easily distractions occur ... and would be familiar with the correct spelling of their job title.
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Mr. Z
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Ah yes, the "short stick." One of the perks of the job. Smile
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
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