After reading a recent thread on here about blackjack "recommend blackjack websites" it got my own mind working (always a good thing!) about blackjack. Now I'm just thinking I remember reading in the Oct 05 Genii Magazine article on Steve Forte, he talked about an advanced (multi level?) counting system that eliminated the common tells of blackjack. I was wondering if there is any information on similar systems. Not really interested in the specific one Forte was talking about but more about a system which eliminates some of the common tells of card counting. Just curious in general how one man (or woman) counting cards alone can be successful and go undetected, or if it is even possible. I'm a limit hold'em player myself.

Posted: Jul 2, 2006 9:17pm
Also to add, this is a shot in the dark, but would be curious to know if anyone knows anything else (besides what was mentioned in the Forte article) about the TRS-Total Recall Scanning, where he can look at two cards per second, for 70-80% of one shuffled deck, and then name the cards that are left. I know this is something probably kept under wraps, but I was intrigued.

PM me for your second question.

To not be detected there are a few ways.

First off no matter what the bet avoid certian bets like the double on the soft 19. The way you play is the biggest cue to the counting.

The next thing is order drinks. Weather you drink them or not order them.

Talk to other players and the dealer.

Also don't let your lips move as the cards come out. Don't STUDY them even though you study them. It has to be second nature.

Like I said PM me and I will give you more info.

I keep saying keep clear of them house games. My wife has just confessed to me that she has lost four grand on the wheel in last few weeks. I did not even know she was a gambler, but I have only been with her 35 years and don't know her very well and she takes no notice of me obviously. Anyway I do not play house games but I seen this and thought maybe it might interest some of you girls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcyw0OwtG......p;search

Tommy Blackjack is one of the few games in a casino in which a player can gain, track, and play with a consistant advantage over the casino.

A "house game" as you call it in card counting parlance is a game like craps, roulette, keno in which the odds never ever sway to the players favor.

Certian slot machines, blackjack, poker and sports betting. (If you get the right "free odds" bet in craps you can gain a minute advantage, but not big enough to exploit.) These are the game which an consistant edge can be gained over the casino with proper research and practice.

Play the wheel and you may as well mail a check to the casino. It has been called many things over the years which tells you how bad the odds really are if it has to keep changing its name.

I think I heard if they don't make at least 17% on Black Jack they know something is wrong. I will stick to poker I think. By the way I ran a poker comp yesterday which might be on telly latter this year if they ok it.

I would suggest for everyone intrested in the subjuct read the book "Bring Down the House-the inside story of 6 MIT students who took Vegas for Millions by Ben Mezrich " I just finshed it and I both enjoyed reading it and learnd a ton on card counting in vegas. READ IT

Dannydoyle I PMed you

Redhead it is an incomplete system they mention in the book. The book was written informationally about the story and not the system.

They used a system that is so complicated that you HAD to be an honer student at MIT to even begin to understand it. It is indeed a fun read, but almost useless if you want to really learn about card counting.

tommy your right to a point. An AVERAGE player will do just as badly as you say. As will an AVERAGE player lose their hind quarters in poker. Point is you don't have to fall within those averages. THAT is why we count.

Posted: Jul 3, 2006 6:02pm
One more thing about casino games to say which is almost never said. It is work. HARD work. IF you want to make a living playing these games it will take a lot of practice time. THEN it will take you about 8 hours a day playing to make sure you can get into the long run. Not easy by any means. It also takes a bankroll to take up the inevetable downturns which will happen.

It is NOT easy even if you know how to do it. You have an andvantage but a slight one at best.

Sorry but nobody ever brings up these points and they are important.

Cardshark2004,

TRS was developed by Steve as a demonstration of what's possible if you put your mind to it. There are any number of people who keep side counts (usually of aces) in addition to the running count at blackjack. Ed Thorp, widely credited with "inventing" card counting, is said to have kept several side counts simultaneously while playing. Peter Griffin, author of The Theory of Blackjack (and a man that used to keep 7 counts simultaneously!) has written extensively on the effects of removal of individual values at the game. David Sklansky published his own research about this topic under the name "Key Card Concept" in Gambling Times (and later in Getting the Best of It) (p. 158). Sklansky even asks the question for the reader: "How can I possibly remember how many of each card are left in the deck?"

Well Steve created TRS to do exactly that. It counts every value (there are 10 of them for blackjack), though some of the values are merely "noted" rather than actually counted according to Steve.

I've seen him do it once and it was staggering. And, while I know the basic concept behind TRS, he hasn't given me a full explanation. I believe he's taught it to only one other person (that I'm aware of). The guy he taught it to is an excellent card guy and a good friend of Steve's. It fits into his style and some of his other demonstrations perfectly.

Since I'm not privvy to all the details of TRS, I've created a method to fake it (which Steve didn't like) and he's shown me a method of faking it that he created (but didn't tip). It's a fun problem to play with if you're into that sort of thing.

Incidentally, while TRS does involve memory to a degree, it is important to point out that it isn't a pure memory stunt. I mean, I'm sure you could duplicate the general effect of TRS with pure memory, but it would probably be much too slow to be as effective as what Steve's doing. He almost instantly rattles off the cards remaining in your hand. There is no hesitation as he consults a pre-memorized "bank" of cards in his head to review which ones he didn't see the first time through. Those of you conversant with memory techniques will know what I'm talking about.

Have fun experimenting.

Jason

PS: Keep in mind TRS was more of a stunt than anything. Steve refers to it as such in Casino Game Protection.

You ever heard the story of a now dead poker player from a few years ago, Stu something, who won a bet in Vegas when he bet he could call the cards left in a deck and did so, a little less than half the deck or something. The fellow was a tragic world series of poker winner who basically drank himself to death.
Steve V

I have only played in AC and in my limited experience with counting (I used Knock Out) I did not experience any "heat" from the casino personel at all.

I think all of this stuff you read about , "How to keep from being barred" sounds like a bunch of romanticized crap to me.

Of course I was playing at fairly low minimums, and I was supprised how long I'd have to sit there sometimes just for the deck to become significantly plus.

I wish the biggest problem I had, concerned being banned. For me just keeping count- even with an easier system is pretty tough.

The second problem you mention negates the first as a possibility . You are simply not a threat and therefore not worth any heat . The subject of being barred is not a bunch of romaticized crap but a real nuisance to skilled players who have invested a significant amount of time and money earning their skill and riding out their fluctuations . Being asked to play "any other game but black jack" just when it's time to realize a return on your investment can be really discouraging to say the least ... and many casinos aren't that polite about it .
Dowser

Steve it was Stu Unger

as for being barred. Why will they bar you with $2 bets? Even if you win, so do they. It is low enough that they can tolerate it as advertising!

Go for highr limits then you get heat.

Let me tell you the biggest card counting tell and it is called "check spread".

You have to have a certian minimum bet, and a certian maximum bet. You bet the minumum when cards are bad and maximum when good. If your playing 8 decks in AC then you have about a 20 check spread or difference in big and small bets. Most inexperienced counters will go straight from small bets to big bets tipping off the count. You have to slide up to it. I realise this description is fairly incomplete, but it makes the point. It is the biggest tell.

cinemagician you sound as if you are still at the learning stages. What I mean by that is it is a LOT more than the ability to count that gets the money or even brings casino heat for you.

You are obviously using an unbalanced system with no side count of aces. Which is fine. It will keep you from making the plays that tip the casino of your counting. Remember that counting is only half the battle. You have to know what to bet when it is good and keep the right small bets when it is bad. A LOT to do. As I said it is a lot of work.

Worst part is all you have to make is a couple mistakes at the wrong time, and BAM the casino has its advantage right back.

It was indeed Stuey "The Kid" Unger, and the bet was with another great hustler, Vegas World owner Bob Stupak.
But it wasn't a single deck, it was two decks shuffled together.
Stuey had the dealer peal the cards out of the shoe at speed giving him only a brief look at each card, as he came to the 104th and final card Stuey said "10 of diamonds".......and so it was.

Stuey showed to what extent you could take memory work along with good card sense like no other player in history.

Many consider Stuey the greatest card mind ever. His wins at the World Series of Poker are the stuff of legend, but Poker wasn't even Stuey's game.
He is considered to this day to be the best Gin Rummy player that ever was, and ever will be. He played the best Gin players in the world and killed them all.
It got to a point where he couldn't even get a game they were all so afraid of him at the Gin table. These were the giants of Gin, millionaires and hustlers. They all literally trembled in fear at the thought of playing Stuey for big money.

Stuey could tell what you had in your hand after you played only a few cards. He watched what you threw, and watched your tempo as you threw it, he remembered everything he saw without fail, in only a few rounds he knew the exact cards in your hand, and as a result of knowing those cards he knew how he could beat you.

That was his Gin game.
Oh....and on top of that, he won the World Series of Poker three times.

It was pure memory work and card sense that made him the best ever at Gin, but it was strictly card sense that made him a world champion poker player.

Stu Unger had a great many huge faults, few of which ever affected anybody but him. In the end he was an amazing guy, loving father, and deeply troubled drug addict who was the greatest Gin player in history, and the most feared Hold'Em player that ever roamed the felt.

Absolutely no offense intended Steve, I always enjoy your posts, but "Stu something" indeed!