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David de Leon Elite user Sweden 418 Posts |
Thank you Pakar, the compliment really warms my heart (and ego). And good to hear from yet another person who has thought about these issues. Getting so much input from you guys just keeps me thinking (and, unfortunately, not working).
As I continue to think about sources of magic and systems of magic I notice that I easily fall into the trap of thinking about magic as just an additional thing. That is, a model of magic in which there is the world, as we know it (natural laws and all), in addition to which there is magic. But if you think about it, natural laws and magic can’t both be true. After all, the magic of many effects is simply that they go against logical and physical possibility. So, one more thing we might think about (and there is much of this already in people’s posts here, all I’m doing is restating the point) is the relation of magic to everything else. Why is there magic? How does magic relate to everything else? What you want is a world view in which magic is an integral part rather than something added on to your old world view. A unified theory of magic and the natural world. You might also (like Wil is doing in the work on his novel) ask why most people don’t know that there is magic, and what the history of magic and magicians might be etc. ... Oh, there is a knock at my door. Who could it be? I’m not opening it. There is a glow around the edges. The door seems to be dissolving into nothing, giving way to a blue glow. I can’t see. The glow is filling my head. What are those dark figures that seem to coalesce? Are they coming for me? I hear a voice... ”Wanna see a card trick?” Aaargghhh..... |
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Bilwonder Veteran user Oroville CA 327 Posts |
I must say, these are great posts! I was a bit taken back by what first seemed a basic question..the source of our magic is a one everyone should have asked themselves in building a performing character. However, the extent of brainstorming here has been absolutely amazing! Continue with the creative suggestions!
My only 2 cents at this time is just some re-framing considerations. I have long believed that if magic were real it would be little noticed. Much of the magician's showmanship is to point out the magic has happened. If I made a drink appear in my hand without any fanfare or ceremony....most people wouldn't notice! They'd just assume they didn't see me pick it up or something. It is the "ceremony" of magic (or religion or traditions...) that focus our attention so a transformation can be appreciated. Also, when considering making magic more "real" realize that this is similar to the evolution of thinking that theatre went through in it's development. Magicians can avoid repeating the same mistakes by learning some of the merits and weakness of "realism" in theatrical history (i.e. distracting detail). Lastly, isn't our magic genuinely real? We conceal our source only to open a portal to a new world of possibilities for others who have been blinded and defeated by the belief some things are impossible. Who is to say what we do is not real?
billswondershow.com
"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus." Mark Twain |
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christopher carter Special user 660 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-12-22 04:14, Bilwonder wrote: Would you please elaborate on this? It sounds like you have some interesting things to say, and I'd like to hear more. --Chris |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Yeah, me 2..... Especially since I'm an actor (struggling as I may be...)
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Bilwonder Veteran user Oroville CA 327 Posts |
Thanks for asking, but let's not get sidetracked from this wonderful thread.
People have strong and varied opinions on art...especially artists. Almost like the different denominations of a religion. Choosing a focus also means choosing a weakness, thus the arguments over what is important. You can easily find books in the library on any type of art where artist argue these trends through history. Naturalism, Realism, Romanticism, Surrealism, Pop Art....All of these movements have their proponents in literature, paint, drama, as well as other arts. You will notice it happening in magic as well. Magic at this time seems to be shadowing theatre for legitimacy, so you can read about these movement in theatre and just change the art to "magic" and see where we may be going. Naturalism for us probably started with Vernon and now we are concerned with "realism." I am hoping to see us move more fully into surrealism, idealism, impressionism, or even something else. The 1900s are an interesting period to observe these arguments in other arts literature. I have suggested the work of Gordon Craig (The Art of the Theatre 1905...) as a starting place for magicians to rethink their approach (I've written more on this in the Café under "Food for Thought" and "the art of magic" http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......start=30 ). However, this thread on character development and the source of magic is still an under explored area. Let these side comments open that up rather than side-track it...
billswondershow.com
"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus." Mark Twain |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
David,
You are looking at a truly OLD chestnut. Even in popular literature this was settled a long time ago. ACCLarke has the quote about there being no difference between sufficiently advanced technology and magic from back in the 1950s. You might benefit from reading more books from outside our craft. Have you read any works by Poe? What do you think of the Lovecraft stories? Taking magic as 'real' can be done in so many ways. My current favorite is the premise of the magician as dupe using what he thinks of as a TV Magic type kit that is really full of magical and cursed objects. The audience gets to figure this out on their own while the magician never gets any wiser. Imagine a cursed pad where a borrowed pen puts the spec under a spell. The name of the card written on the pad is the name of the card the spec will select. again and again until the sheet of paper is burned. The first time this seems like a prediction effect. Then the magician gushes with success and it happens again. And again. The audience gets the horror. The magician just enjoys it happening and then burns the sheet. The spec is relieved and the audience gets the idea. Have fun whatever you do.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
I love this thread. Just wanted to share some further thoughts on this subject.
Regarding my own "magical ability", I'm going for the "one who taps into little known powers" twist. As an illusionist, I feel it gives a sense of realism to the big props/boxes that I have to use. They are the means by which I "channel" these powers. Portals and Machines. I have limited myself to these basic two "sources" of "magical" powers. Mysticism and Pseudoscience. Mysticism and the belief in it is rife here in Malaysia. I will perform my illusion according to the mystic rites of my Malay culture. As such I will be using incense to "bless" my prop and the fragrance should stay on and in it. I've spoken of this to friends who are in the know as to how the illusion's method works and even they find the presentation eerie as it will look and feel (and smell) exactly like a "real" mystic's ritual here. Using Pseudoscience, I will perform my other prop as "The Machine". The imagery here is easily recognisable as it is similar to the infamous "Alien Autopsy" Isolation Chamber of Sci-Fi. "The Machine" mutates the molecular structure and to the spectator it looks like it has vanished/appeared/morphed the object/person put into it. This plays to the "what if there was such a Machine in real life?" question. Whaddaya think?
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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David de Leon Elite user Sweden 418 Posts |
Has anyone heard of the book The Spirit Cabinet by Paul Quarrington? It’s on Banachek’s recommended reading list and apparently a story about what happens when real magic comes to Vegas. There is a short summary of the book at Banachek’s site:
http://www.banachek.org/Recomended%20Reading.htm Something for Wil? My university library has it so I’ll go and get it in just a few minutes. And, by the way, Bilwonder, you made some great points in your posts (that real magic would go unnoticed; that we might learn from theatre and avoid the possible pitfalls of realism). Things that got me thinking about over Christmas. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Any thoughs on the new vending machines that talk? Or ones that talk quietly and the sound seems inside your head?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Sorry to have to ask,but what's that got to do with this topic?
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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markjens Loyal user N. CA 213 Posts |
I just had to jump in on this one. Your thread is exactly the reason I stopped in on this forum. I am not a mentalist, nor am I necessarily a bizarre type magician. I am interested in close up magic that is something other than the "I am a frustrated stand up comic on speed" school. I am in appearance and conduct rather serious, and what you are proposing is something that I have been greatly concerned with. I try in my magic to be believable by telling the truth. If I am speaking the truth, and my movements are congruent with someone who is truthful and wise (much gray hair and beard without appearing like a homeless bum), I find that the audience will buy into what I am presenting. I try very hard to believe what I am doing, and while doing so, bring the audience along for a ride.
I was just reading an old magazine the other day that posed with question, "How many magicians believe in magic?" Having come across your thread then, I have given the subject much thought. We are so much better off as performers and as magicians if we are truthful with the people we come in contact with. It is certainly a challenge to our own ability to control an audience, so as not to be caught in a situation where an untruth is necessary. I have found throughout my whole life that I am a believeable and trustworthy person, and this makes people want to tell me things. Marriage troubles, spiritual battles, work stuff, etc. I listen, whether I want to hear about it or not, and the practice of being approachable allows me to maintain a persona that is comfortable to others. We can get away with pretty much anything if the audience trusts us, if they aren't busy looking for the "tricks." This is a most important point. If our audience is busy looking for tricks, it compounds our difficulties—first, we have to work much harder to be perfect, second, we begin running without being chased, and third, the person doing the looking is missing the entire experience of the effect while looking for the payoff. There may still be wonder, but there has been no magic, merely surprise. I believe it is very important to believe what you are saying, and I am gratified when I see someone experience magic. Yes, I am one of those old fashioned kooks that still loves the look of wonder when someone has experienced magic. Every time I see the look I get to have something very precious in common with that person, for we share something that is very important to me—MAGIC! Thanks for letting me rant on this one too. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Has anyone hacked into those vending machines? Replaced the tape with a radio controlled unit? So many cute things one could 'say' to people.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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mitchmajik New user Illinois 27 Posts |
My sincere thanks to David for starting this thread, and to Bill Jackson for alerting me to it. This is a subject I've given a great deal of thought to over the years, and have integrated into my performances and my lecture. I'd like to share a longer post with my thoughts when I have more time, but for now, let me point some of you to an article in AM/PM magazine by Tom Cutts that had some great thinking on the "energy" style of magic that David suggests. More soon...
OOOPs. I forgot to give additional info on the article and magazine. AM/PM, for those who aren't familiar with it, is a magazine on the artistic and performance side of magic put out by Tom Cutts. You can learn more at http://www.AMPMmagazine.com The article I mentioned was an editorial that Tom wrote a couple of issues back. Mitch Williams
Make your magic more creative and impressive;
http://www.artofmagicseries.com/toolkit.htm |
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Ben Cummings New user 66 Posts |
A feeling of 'real magic' can be best fostered via (a) congruent character development; (b) by positioning of your 'story' i.e. a plausible reason and rationale BEHIND your magic that doesn't insult the intelligence of your audience; (c) Viewing every action (verbal AND non-verbal) and trying to see the performance from the audiences perspective. For ex., I've often found that the non-spoken and "suggestions" that I imply via my actions, speak volumes more then if I were to SAY what I was doing.
This is vague sounding so let me clarify. Kenton Knepper before bending a spoon will remove his finger rings and watch - because - this non-verbal action SUGGESTS vastly more then if he were to say "...and now I'm going to bend this spoon so I better remove my rings, otherwise they'll get bent too!" Character + Congruence + Plausible "Story" + Non-Verbal Suggestion = Real Magic. Just my opinion of course.
Author of "Conversations With Mind Readers"
Over 40 hours of interviews with thirty-two Top Mentalists & Mind Readers. For more info email me at bencummings1@yahoo.com and I will email you a detailed Prospectus. |
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David de Leon Elite user Sweden 418 Posts |
Mitch, look forward to your future post on this topic! I’m sure I’m not the only one who would like more input on this particular thread. In the meantime, could you say exactly which issue of AM/PM magazine the article you refer to is in. I may want to order it. I am thinking about rewriting my original post as an article and think it would be a good idea to read up a little.
And Ben, I like the Knepper idea of taking off metal items before spoon bending. I totally agree with you that the suggested, or implied, is often more powerful than the explicitly stated (and that goes for books, theatre and films as well as for magic). |
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shinobi Loyal user Durban, South Africa 272 Posts |
To echo what others have said before, an excellent discussion. i much prefer to keep away from 'proppy' looking effects, and leaving that sense of doubt in peoples minds as to if what they have just seen is real or not. Just a small thing to add, i personally would love to see the word 'Trick' banned from common use in magic. it undermines the basic premise that u are performing real magic rather than a physically explainable method, by admitting there's a 'trick' to it. any thoughts on this?
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Dan Farmer Loyal user Northern Nevada 235 Posts |
Well I don't have anything as philosophical to add (best thread I've ever read on the magic Café though for sure).
About the original point of magic as an energy or whatnot. There are two sets of interesting David Eddings books called the Belgariad and the Mallorean (then an interesting Rivan Codex which is the behind the scenes action). Anyway it is a very interesting series about magic and in it he has several "systems." The system the protagonist uses is called "The Will and the Word" I think you should read the books if you want a good idea of how it all fits together since I would probably cheapen it by trying to summarize but it's another intersting premise to add. -Dan |
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hadit New user 16 Posts |
93 David
Very interesting post. I am a student of Magick within the Ordo Templi Orientis and the AA. I also have a healthy interest in magic. I have been working on a character to integrate both and have achieved this by anthropomorphizing cards or attaching ideas to cards and then doing tricks while giving the spectator a patter on related Thelemic philosophy or other Gems from Aleister. To what end? The trick takes on a whole different meaning. If you just want to appear to be something fine - but even, better become it! 93/93 Hadit |
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Jim Morton Veteran user 361 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-12-13 15:45, David de Leon wrote: That should be: "Magic as if it were real." The subjunctive mood is in effect. Other than that, it was a fine essay. Jim Morton (Out of work editor. ) |
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David de Leon Elite user Sweden 418 Posts |
Dan, I will have to take a look at David Edding’s books, and I’m sure there are many other fantasy authors to consider. Thanks for the pointer! One book I recall reading as a teenager was called The Master of Five Magics by Lyndon Hardy (and there was also a sequel to it). I seem to remember it being unusually explicit about magical systems. Anyone here read it? I will try to find my old copy to read it again when I get back to Sweden in April.
As for becoming a real magician Hadit, rather than just appearing to be one, I solemnly promise to do my best! For a start, it is high time that I read more about magic from a non-conjuring perspective. And Morton, I felt there was something wrong with the phrase ”were real,” but couldn’t be sure (I almost speak English like one of the natives, but it’s still just my second language). I’m glad you liked the rest of the post. Incidentally, I have now rewritten the original post in more of an essay style and I will make it available soon (there is some final tweaking to do). My sincere thanks to everyone here for an inspiring and generous dialogue! |
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