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flourish dude Inner circle from ? But I know where I am going! 1195 Posts |
What if another entertainer called you to do a gig that they booked but then could not do themselves. This performer has performed for this group several times before in the past. The performer does not want a referral fee. You go do the show for them and then the following year they call you instead of the first performer. You did not give them any cards but they called you off your invoice because the performer pasted them to you and you did you own booking with them. What should you do? Should you take the booking? Should you say they need to call the other performer first? The other performer is not a booking agent so I don't feel like you have to go through them. What would you do? Would you book the show and give the performer a referral fee? The problem is they want to hire you because they liked your show better. If you tell that to the other performer then you might cause a problem with them. But if you just say "I am not sure why they called me first" then he might think you tried to get them to hire yourself and not them. This is a hard one. I feel like I have taken thier client. Not on purpose!
Nothing of the same will bring any change, take action today!
Just taking a step, is a step in the right direction because when you stop working, your dream dies. www.magicalmemories.us |
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Paddy Inner circle Milford OH 1571 Posts |
You have not stolen a client, you are just a better performer for this customer. Take the job. If he asks you about it then admit that they called you, if he says anything more then offer a referral fee.
Hey the situation could be easily reversed. You may referr him and the client just likes his style better so they hire him from now on. It doesn't mean that either one is a better performer, just that this client likes one perfromers style better. Peter |
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Creative Coach Loyal user Anderson, SC 294 Posts |
NO fee is due! The client chose you! Simple as that! It was nice the other performer sent them to you but unless they are a booking agent and you had an agreement I wouldn't worry about it! You don't owe them anything.
That's like I did Sally's party this yr. I get called next yr and I can't do it so I refer you. You do a better job! The client goes to you the next yr. My tough luck! If you didn't solicit the client out from under the other performer you DO NOT owe them ANY fee! It was the clients choice. Don't lose sleep over this one! If the other performer gets upset they need to grow up and maybe improve! Hope that helps! John Cooper |
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James Munton Inner circle Dallas, TX 1199 Posts |
Bill,
That exact thing happened to me and I told them I was unable to do the second show and referred them back to my friend. If you refer me a show with one of your regular clients, I'm not going to steal your client no matter what. Sorry that's just the way I am. I'm surprised by John's response. I think that is a surefire way to lose friends and business in the long run. Quote:
This is a hard one. I feel like I have taken thier client. Not on purpose! Bill. if you feel like you have taken their client, then you have, whether or not you did it on purpose. Just my opinion. Best, James |
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C Christian Loyal user 288 Posts |
I agree with James that I would not do that to a FRIEND. But if he was someone that called you out of the Blue YES I would take the show. Customer found you, case closed.
cheers & good luck, chris |
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flourish dude Inner circle from ? But I know where I am going! 1195 Posts |
Here is the thing, I don't feel like I stole the client because I did not promote myself to the client. They called me on their own. I did not hand anyone my card, I did not say call me next year. But still because they want to hire me and not him I do feel like I have caused the performer to loose a client. At any rate I have not accepted the booking yet. This has happened to me before, a performer pasted a show to me that he was not able to. The following year the client called me to do the show. I told them I needed to call the other performer first because he referred me the year before. The other performer got very upset with me because he thought I was trying to take the client. The fact of the matter was I did not try to do this at all. They contacted me. No matter what I said he thought I was stealing his client. This is why I am questioning how to handle this so the same thing does not happen again. No matter what I see this could turn into a problem. They might call the past performer and tell them they called me first. If I call the performer and say they called me they could accuse me of what ever they want to think.
Nothing of the same will bring any change, take action today!
Just taking a step, is a step in the right direction because when you stop working, your dream dies. www.magicalmemories.us |
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mrmystic Regular user Chicago 200 Posts |
You could call your friend and ask if he refered them to you again and let him know that they called. If he doesn't have a problem with it take the gig. Friends are harder to replace then gigs.
Also make sure you refer gigs back to your friend when you can't do them. |
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Creative Coach Loyal user Anderson, SC 294 Posts |
Again, the customer chose Bill! Because I've spoken at a corporate event for yrs doesn't mean my client is not free to choose another speaker this yr! Bill did a better job than the guy that refered him. Maybe the friend needs to improve so he's a catagory of one! That way the client would keep him at the top of their list of prefered entertainers. Bill did not even solicit the business. They chose him over the other guy. If you don't take the gig it's unlikely the client will hire the friend anyway or they would have called him first! Sorry but refering clients doesn't give you exclusitivity.
Yes, if you think this person is a good performer refer some business his way too! Sorry but that's my take on it! John |
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corpmagi Special user New York 725 Posts |
I'm with Mr. Mystic on this one for the most part. It's OK to take the gig, but do let your friend know that they called again. You can offer a referral fee, but chances are he won't take it (you can take him out to dinner some time or send a gift that he can't refuse). Your friend gave you that client a year ago with no strings attached; it is yours to keep. You did all the phone calls, paperwork and follow-up. You earned the right to keep that client. you also did a good job and made your friend look good. You should definitely try to reciprocate with a referral of your own when you can. I always prefer exchanging gigs with friends rather than money.
A Modern Trade Show Handbook
www.trafficstoppers.com/handbook |
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James Munton Inner circle Dallas, TX 1199 Posts |
John,
I thought we'd just caught you in a bad mood earlier! But now I am really surprised that someone who coaches entertainers would have such an opinion. I'm amazed you have any friends left if this is the way you treat them! I'm not sure what you teach people, but surely developing relationships is one of the most important things for a successful entertainer. As Bill mentioned in his post, the last time something similar happened, the other performer was upset. Your solution to tell the other performer to "grow up" isn't exactly going to mend bridges, is it? And the reason Bill started this thread is that he is concerned this guy will be upset, too. Let's pretend this person isn't even a friend. Just another performer who referred this one single gig. You are prepared to lose the potential of possibly tens of thousands of dollars of future referrals from this individual for one lousy gig? And don't you think this individual is going to tell his friends that you stole one of his customers (because however YOU argue it, that's what HE is going to feel)? So you are not only losing future referrals from this one person, you are going to lose a ton from everyone he tells about you! I'm sure there are many people who are now thinking to themselves that they would never refer a gig to you as a result of your post! Never mind ethics, that just doesn't make good business sense to me. Best, James |
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flourish dude Inner circle from ? But I know where I am going! 1195 Posts |
You see! I don't think I can win either way.
Nothing of the same will bring any change, take action today!
Just taking a step, is a step in the right direction because when you stop working, your dream dies. www.magicalmemories.us |
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Jim Snack Inner circle 1338 Posts |
I agree with corpmagi and mrmystic on this one. It would be courteous to call the other magician and ask if he referred you again (even though that was probably not the case). If he doesn't have a problem, take the gig. If he is upset, you could turn it down or even offer a referral fee. Make the decision at that time, knowing that if you take the gig, you will cause some bad feelings - justified or not - with the other performer.
It's an awkward situation to be sure, but no one "owns" the client. If I were the magician who made the referral and the client wasn't interested in coming back to me, I would want to know so I could address the issue with my own business. Jim |
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Leland Stone Inner circle 1204 Posts |
Other hands more wise than mine have ably inputted thoughts on this topic, but submitted FWIW:
What is the potential for harm or loss accruing from your ignoring the original referring party? Probably quite small, as the chance of discovery seems remote. Therefore, what is the cost of ignoring the original referring party (RP)? Anything ranging from zero to a little lost face in an embarrassing future encounter with the RP to a loss of revenue from his future referrals to you. But what is the cost of a token referral fee or gift or acknowledgement of some sort? What is the potential benefit of such a token? Questions I leave to you and others better qualified to answer. Personally, I like to keep the gears well-greased. A small token, a bit of recognition (even where not expected nor required)...term it by the less savoury name of bribery if you will...it has its place. Leland |
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TheDean Inner circle Reno, Nevada 2164 Posts |
Here's the deal...
WE can ALL guess, surmise, theorize, suppose what WE "THINK" is right, proper, appropriate, and correct, BUT the bottom line is that it is up to and between Bill and his fiend DIRECTLY. Where I applaud Bill for having the chutzpah to ask our "worldly opinions" (Hehehehe! And that is all they are at this point...) this is a personal discussion between the two of them. Bill, my brother, CALL YOUR FRIEND and ASK HIM/HER how THEY wan to handle this and between the two of YOU, come to a amicable agreement and understanding. Jim, Corp, Myst are on the right trail here... where "we" can offer our insights and experience (NONE are particularly RIGHT OR WRONG - Depends on BILL and his associate.) and 'opinions', ultimately it is up to BILL to call his friend and work out the details of this understanding. Everything else is conjecture and guesswork. A HELPFUL and very worthwhile discussion for us to have so when this comes up for each of us (and it WILL) that we have had some forethought and options to consider in our “accessory knowledge base” so we can choose what is right for us based on more information... and HOPEFULLY, "BEFORE" the gig is handed over in the FIRST PLACE. I always set the rules before hanging up the phone… for ME, it’s do what you want, but THAT is for each to decide, BUT “deciding” and then communicating that is the REAL question here, isn’t it? If Bill and his friend had done that up-front, this thread would not likely exist as it is. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Now that said... “my own personal experience” is with Jim and the others. Bill would have NEVER been "paid" to be exposed to this audience and hence the "offer" with out the REAL “expense and experience” of his friend, so I PERSONALLY believe the he owes his friend, AT-LEAST a call and first right to do with that "BUSINESS Opportunity" as HE sees fit and the negotiation is with Bill and his friend. Besides, that what FRIENDS do for each other, NOT "finders keepers". That is not good business… THERE you have it, some fact and some opinion... something for everyone! - Woo Hoo! IMPORTANT Discussion. I am at your service and In HIS Service, Dean <>< PS James, my friend, Where I agree with you in principle, JOHN is a great coach who get real, solid, deliverable results and outcomes for his friends and relationships. When you go to the store, do you by EVERYTHING in that store? Of course not, BUT it doesn’t make the store bad for selling “miniature corn”! (The EVILE Canned Vegi! – Hehehehe!) Does it make the STORE bad or wrong for selling stuff YOU don’t like or want to buy??? As with ANY real-world experience, some products, solutions, information etc… will serve you, some will not. Simply take what YOU can use and leave the rest for others to purchase if they so choose, or maybe it will just sit there on the shelf and now one else ever buys it either… maybe it will be returned to the manufacture, but THAT is between the store owner and his distributors, not YOU and the store. So what, you don’t like what John suggests… don’t BUY IT, but there is no need to picket around the store and throw rock in the window cuz they sell “Mini Corn”, is there? Baby… bathwater and all that. Do with it what you will my friend. Deano <><
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success! "Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…" (*Marketing Doctor) |
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James Munton Inner circle Dallas, TX 1199 Posts |
Dean,
I happen to like that canned miniature corn. I'm sorry if it appeared I was trashing John - I certainly was not. Just strongly disagreeing with his opinion on this particular subject. In fact, I've agreed with John's other opinions on previous threads. On this occasion, I also disagree with both you and Jim who are two people I also usually agree with...But I still love you! Even if you call the friend to ask permission to take the gig, they are still unlikely to want to refer future shows to you. You are taking away not just a single show, but a repeat client. I can't imagine anyone being happy about that, whether you offer 15% or not! I still think the simplest solution is to tell the client you are busy that day and refer it back to the original performer. I'm sure Bill keeps pretty busy and will book another show that day. And just what is your problem with miniature corn, anyway? Best, James |
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Gerry Walkowski Inner circle 1450 Posts |
I agree 100% with James on this one.
About ten years ago a good client called and I was already booked for a show. Not wanting to leave this person in the dark, I referred the client to another magician who I thought was a decent friend. The magician wanted to give me a finder's fee, which I refused, but the following year the client called this magican rather than me. The magician accepted the show, never notified me, and just kept my customer. I have to admit, the client that the magician stole wasn't one of my better clients and in some ways, I didn't mind losing this particular customer as the show was always more trouble than what it was really worth. That was, however, the last referral I ever gave that magicain and my opinion of his work ethics changed dramatcially. Gerry |
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kaytracy Inner circle Central California 1793 Posts |
There really does not seem to be an easy answer to this one.
My personal take is "the Customer is always right." Three cars in a row I bought a Ford, then one year I tried a Chevy. I have not looked at Ford's since. As a customer, my needs were better suited. If Chevy had tried to tell me, "no you should stick wtih Ford" or if Ford had called and said something like "Why are you buying Chevy?" I might have just gone wtih Toyota and left off of both. I agree that performers like repeat customers. There are performers I like to see, more than once. but not the same show over and over. I am not saying that this IS what happened and why the client might have opted for the "new show". Just that the client might have seen something new and different they liked. remember, as a performaer, you do not "OWN" the client. Clients do not like to do any more work booking things up than the performer wants to do to get them booked. Clients will take the path of least resistance, and go with something they know and are familiar with. The dilemma arises whenthey get a taste of something different. maybe better, maybe not, just different, and they find they like it. They now have something different, new, refreshing, and easy to book. The client does have a choice. In the event you have a client who calls and you do not book them<for whatever reason> if they go to the phone book and call someone else is that performer bad if they manage to keep that client? So perhaps the issue is how does one determine what is considered professional behavior when a client decides they want to go with someone else, referral or not! For both parties! Is the new performer bound by some secret code to refuse? Is the old performer right to demand the client? What about the client? Business ethics are different from performance or work ethics. Most have made clear that their work ethics are not in much question, there is strong desire to give the best performance possible for the client. When doing business, if a referral is made, you run the risk that the CLIENT will make a choice you might not like. I suppose that folks could agree that if a referral is made, there is always a caveat that "the other person will cost a bit more" leading to the idea that if the stand in is another 50-100$ that they will return to you the following year or event. You just have to get the stand in to agree to charge them that extra- perhaps that is the referral fee! Of course you run the risk of losing them to the phone book, and them finding the other person all on their own. A client perspective might be along the lines of, "You were so busy last year and couldn't do my show, I just figured you would be inthe same boat this year." They might be right. That sense of loyalty has got to go both ways. You sent them someone you felt would do a good job, and they did. If you had a booking last year that overshadowed that regular customer, lets hope you developed that into a repeat one. Kay
Kay and Tory
www.Bizarremagick.com |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
I agree, you don’t own the customer, they own you, and can replace you anytime they wish without anybodys permission.
I wonder if the friend contacted the client after the show to find out how Bill did? Also to apologize again, and let them know that he would be available next year. Be interesting to know if the friend Stayed in contact with the client. If he didn’t, I would have to say he has no reason to be upset. And if he did stay in close contact and they still choose Bill, he still has no reason to be upset. He has a problem. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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James Munton Inner circle Dallas, TX 1199 Posts |
Quote:
I wonder if the friend contacted the client after the show to find out how Bill did? Also to apologize again, and let them know that he would be available next year. Be interesting to know if the friend Stayed in contact with the client. Tom, Excellent point! I did that exact thing a couple of weeks ago when I got selected for jury duty and couldn't get out of it. I passed a show to a friend and called the client afterwards. The client booked another show with me for the fall. By the way, I feel like I DO own my clients and I am very protective of them. I take good care of them and keep in touch with them on a regular basis. If I am referred a show by another performer, I treat the client as I would treat another man's wife! I'm friendly and entertaining, but I don't ask her to run away with me...even if I think she secretly wants to! I expect other performers AND my clients to treat me in the same way. If I ever found out they were having an affair, I'd dump them both!!! Best, James |
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TheDean Inner circle Reno, Nevada 2164 Posts |
Again… ALL OF US have our own “ideas and opinions” and for each of us that may work just fine, BUT there is only ONE REAL solution to the "original" situation presented, whether we AGREE with the outcome or not.
That is SIMPLY, as stated in my last post, that this is strictly between our brother Bill and his entertainer friend. COMPLETELY SEPERATE from all that, we each/all have our own “ideas, ideals, OPINIONS and experience” that validate our own perspective... that too is perfectly fine. As I said, I have my own "OPINION" and way that I would (and actually DO) deal with this exact sort of situation, as do others... GREAT! BUT... The only REAL bottom line answer, regardless of our "opinions", it “that is up to Bill and his friend”, if Bill chooses to communicate with his friend, which "I Personally Believe" he should! That is NOT to say that he WILL, but it is my opinion that he should. Do you understand my point? - - I'm NOT saying that anyone is right or wrong. YES, I "am" saying that I have my own particular opinion and experience on how "I" handle this sort of situation, but that is all it is... for EACH OF US, our "OPINION" and experience as to what we might do or not do. Regardless of our "OPINION", in THIS particular situation, is really “only between BILL and his friend, associate, fellow entertainer.” That is all I'm saying. I hope that helps clear things up… no big deal, just trying to be clear. James, my friend, As far as I'm concerned, it is PERFECTLY FINE to agree to disagree, which we do on 'occasion', and as you pointed out has zero barring on our relationship... if anything, I LOVE a person who is passionate about success... you are a-ok in my book bud! (But you know that!) As far as the mini corn thing... I'm not sure where I grew such an aversion to the ‘satanic vegi’... (Hehehehe!) I guess it just "is what it is" for me in that department. Ha! Party on! I am at your service and In HIS Service, Deano in Reno <>< PS I agree with many of you, on this issue that Re-Elationships are paramount... this little or no surprise to most of you here.
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success! "Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…" (*Marketing Doctor) |
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