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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » If right you win, if wrong you lose... » » Criss Angel's boy exposes Three Shell Game on National TV! » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Whit Haydn
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As do I. The exposure has not been a problem. I worked the Magic Castle bar the week after the exposure, doing the shells. People who had seen the show talked about it, were still fooled and amazed by the shells.

Most of the people complaining are probably not shell game workers. They do not understand the game.

There is no secret to the shell game. There is nothing possible to reveal.
Professor Piper
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Fine and well...Point taken on the "Shell Game" issue.

What of the Magic he has exposed without regard to the history of the Art? (Meaning we keep our secrets)

And, Mr. Robbins, no insult was meant...Sorry if you assumed it was.

Prof. Piper
(Terry)

P.S...I am learning the shells at this time, having seen them performed and wanting to learn them...For entertainment purposes only.



Todd Robbins wrote:

Quote:
I will just say that exposure done by anyone means nothing.

I have to admit that this thread has haunted me all day...

I came home from work at the Magic shop (after having to tell countless tourists that I can't reveal the secret to the various tricks done by Magicians here in town) and reread this entire thread...

I have to ask, honestly...

Did you really mean that Todd? Really???

Because I have to tell you, I've respected you and your take on the craft for a long time...

This truly throws me for a loop.

I'm sorry if you feel this is an insult, because it isn't...

It's an honest question from someone who has been around Magic for more than 2 decades and has respected the time honored tradition of keeping the secrets amoungst those who 'need to know them'...

If Magic loses it's secrets, then it isn't Magic any more...

It's a bunch of lame *** tricks...

Prof. Piper
(Terry)
"Nemo has been found! He was on an Admiral's Platter at Red Lobster!"
memph33777
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In my opinion the shell game/Monte is not a scam. in my opinion a sucker has a chance to win at the shell/Monte game. I had a friend of mine who was a pimp and when he was in New York he would regularly turn the red card over on New York Monte players. I don't remember which law it is but there is a law that anything is possible. It might not be probable for a person to win at Monte/shell but it is possible. They say that only 2 things are for certain and that is death and taxes. It doesn't say anywhere about the Monte/shell being impossible! These people make me sick! I mean sick to the stomach! The stock market, casinos, carnivals, politicians and others are taking people for billions and billions and you got people running around trying to protect people from losing making $100 bucks at the Monte/shell. This is a *** shame! They say never give game to a lame and I mean George and Canada I want to know how did lames get their hands on the game anyhow? I don't see them going around warning people about poker cheats! I guess maybe because most poker players aren't minorities!


Also street hustlers don't do like Criss Angel because street hustlers have enough respect for the game not to screw it up for everybody! if Criss Angel has his way he would make his money and if he could get everybody in the world to watch TV he would show it to everybody else in the world and everybody would know and there would be nobody who hasn't seen all the magic tricks you guys do. But street hustlers preserve the game for future generations so it will be around for a thousand years. Nothing Criss Angel does is original. He is a sucker who got this game from somebody else and is spoiling it for everybody. The whole world is swindling its the American way. Its called business. Its called turning a profit! If a car dealer buys a car for $1,000 he can't sell it for one thousand. He might buy it for $1,000 and sell it for $4,995 and give a person with bad credit a 15% interest rate. Now he has made or ripped these people off for maybe 6 or 7 thousand but I don't see people lined up to warn America about them! Some people need their heads examined! You are straining at a gnat but swallowing a camel!


I am a street hustler and I have a friend of mine who is a square. Me and my square friend we went to elementary school together. One time I gave my square friend some game and a friend of mine from Los Angeles told me he said why did you give that square the game? He said all he is gonna do is go and give the game to all his square friends. This is true because this is exactly what he did. This is how Criss Angel got to expose the game. There is a old saying that says anything you love you keep, Jesus said that the good shepherd he cares for the sheep and when the wolf comes the good shepherd or owner won't run off and desert the sheep but a hireling will run off and leave the sheep because they are not his. A real player will not desert the game but a hireling or a sucker who has no business with the game he will give it to anybody and everybody because he doesn't love the game, it means nothing to him! Some players have made the same mistake I did and gave this game to suckers and now many suckers know about it! Sorry about the bad typing but my hands are tired.
Police Magician
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Jay, the reason these are known as scams is because the sucker is not supposed to win at them. Although a judge in New York City did rule once that it was gambling, he was wrong because no one explained the mechanics to him. The only way anyone can have a chance to win is if they are allowed to do so. But, a true worker will not allow it.

Glenn

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Glenn Hester

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Police Magician
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Jay, I have done something about crooked and gambling carnival games in my area, and taught other LEO's about it as well.

Glenn

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Glenn Hester

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memph33777
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Magician you are a policeman and I am a street hustler. I have had experience with the shell game on the street. As I told you a friend of mine from Atlanta killed 2 guys in California over a Monte game. Now this is a true story, the jury found him not guilty because the jury said they were gambling, they lost their money, and when they tried to take the money back they were trying to rob him. And he married his lawyer who was a white woman. This is a true story and if I am lying I hope I die now! I beat a guy out of some money one time playing the 3 shell game and I gave him his money back and he wanted to take my money. I ended up stabbing the guy and the cops came and were gonna take me to jail. The cops told him if they took me to jail for aggravated assault they were gonna take him to jail for gambling, so he signed a refuse to prosecute form and neither of us went to jail. So from my experience and my opinion 3 Card Monte and 3 Shell Game is gambling.
Police Magician
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I cannot help what cops in other jurisdictions do, all I know is what our laws in Georgia are. If you beleive it is gambling, I disagree, but respect your opinion. We have charged these people with theft by deception when arrested and our court upheld the charges. You have your experiences and I have mine that has made my mindset on this subject matter.

On another note, as I said in another forum, I will be in Memphis next April. I would like to meet you for dinner and drinks (our treat). My girlfriend has a friend there and I have kinfolk there. I have dined with street hustlers in the past.


Regarding courts; do you really think that a jury is made up of your peers? If it were, they would all be street hustlers. Triers of Facts and Judges have been wrong before and will be so in the future, that is what they call Justice.

Glenn
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Dave V
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I agree with the last post. They may think it's gambling... but we know better.

Here's my favorite W.C. Fields line:

Sucker: "Is this a game of chance?"
WC: "Not the way I play it, no."
(My Little Chickadee)


It sounds like it might be to the hustler's advantage to have law enforcement believe it's gambling.

Of course that also means it's the job of people like Glenn to counter that by educating them otherwise. Whether the magician thinks it's their job to push the issue either way seems to be the touchy point here. I like Whit Haydn's saying "You can't smarten up a chump." It could very well be we're fighting a losing battle. They will believe whatever they want to believe, regardless of our efforts to convince them otherwise.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
SeaDawg
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You want to turn the 3 Shell game into Gambling. Let the worker make his moves.
Let the "Mark" pick his shell. Then a seperate party turns over both choices that are not the marks with a long implement, ie dental pick. If the pea is not there, then by default it should be under the one he picked, and therefore he wins.

Then it becomes gambling. Anything else involving holdouts, late loads etc are are cheating and a scam. Just because casinos prey on the innumerate, doesn't make their activities illegal. I do not want to digress into a thread on the moral and ethical ramifications of gambling. And lest one think I am a "casino" virgin, I have more hands of casino blackjack played as a pro behind me then I ever want to try and calculate. Why did I quit? My wife didn't want my girls to grow up thinking that a card counting gambler was a profession( even though it is.)

I do Fast & Loose as a routine, and am working on bringing my shells to performance level. But they are routines and done for entertainment. Trying to hustle "F& L " or 3SG as a living is very very dangerous business in my opinion.
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mota
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memph33777 said:

"As I told you a friend of mine from atlanta killed 2 guys in california over a monte game. Now this is a true story the jury found him not guilty because the jury said they were gambling, they lost their money, and when they tried to take the money back they were trying to rob him."

What case was this? Who was the defendant? It would be interesting to read. As the information is all public access there should be no privacy issues.

So, who was the charged person?

Where in California was this tried?

What year was this?
dxsare
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Quote:
On 2006-12-05 14:55, Todd Robbins wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-12-04 21:06, memph33777 wrote:
Criss angel is a sucker who would never last 5 minutes as a street hustler 3cm/3sg worker.


Criss is lucky that he took the so very easy route and became a well known TV personality, and got the fortune that came with it, and not had to do the hard work of being a petty street hustler. I don't know why street workers don't do like Criss did.


Criss Angel worked the streets for years every thursday I believe and did a show before he got famous with TV. The funny thing about people who bash Criss is he is actually a very good magician, has a very unique stage show, and IS NOT limited to how he is portrait on his show Mind Freak. This is coming from somebody that doesn't really care for the show, but I do appreciate what he has done for magic, and for how he has helped give magic a comeback.

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memph33777
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First let me answer policemagician. that's all it can be is gambling. If I am playing monte with some guys and the cops come the guy cant say I put a pistol to his head and made him play! he played because he wanted to of his own free will! So it is gambling! I was a well known con man in memphis! I beat a guy out of his money 1 time at monte and there was this very prejudice cop in memphis who knew me very well! The mark saw the cop and he was a white mark and he told the cop hey this guy just robbed me! The cop replied no you are lying, he might have wopped(beat) you out of your money but he didn't rob you and the cop never asked me to stop and I turned the corner and kept going! This is because that cop knows that tricks give me my money! he knows I don't take money. he knows that the only tricks I get money from are tricks who deserve to be beat! The larceny in their heart got them beat. Now to mota and who was the guy and where yada yada yada. His name was blue and he was from atlanta. This took place in San Diego Ca. around 85 or 86. Most street hustlers don't give you their real name.
Police Magician
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Jay, I understand your point. Although some cops look on this as gambling, that is not the charge we would affix to the warrant if we caught someone here in my jurisdiction. Here, it is looked upon as fraud, pure and simple, and the charge of theft by deception sticks. If it is under 500 dollars the charge is a misdemeanor. Over 500 makes it a felony. I hope you understand my point. Enough said on this by me.

Glenn
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Matt Pulsar
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Wow, what a thread. Many things have been said that seem to need more thought. There seems to be a question as to if exposure is wrong or acceptable in certain circumstances. I think the salt shaker and lipstick ash exposures and the levitating styrofoam cup are much worse exposures than the shell game. But even in this instance you can show them the game, show people lose and then show how much control the worker really has without giving out the method.

memph33777 stated that the game is gambling and that you can win. And to that I just laugh. You say your pimp friend would win at monte, don't you think he may have been with it a little? Aside from which if you say the mark has a chance to win the three shell game, then all you are telling this magic community is that you don't know how it works, but I don't believe that is true.

As per the argument that there are no secrets in the world I think you are sadly mistaken. Yes, you can find it in a book, and yes, you can surf the internet and come up with something, but in those instances you are making an effort to know. When it comes to a national television show you may be there to see something amazing and you may be wondering how things are done, but if they just give it to you what does that accomplish. In the old days of network television it may have been fleeting to have these exposures. But today? The shows are going to run many times, then there is the DVD world where people are going to show these things to their friends, and then You-tube, its all there to view over and over and over again.

I agree, we are not going to lose our shirts over this. I agree that a good act is a good act, and the exposure of its secrets is not going to destroy it. But, it is still unethical to expose magical secrets, and we should not support this action.
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Professor Piper
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Extremely well put Stuart, thank you!!!

You make my point (with much more eloquence (sp?) than I, but the point remains the same...

Exposure, in any form, is wrong.

Prof. Piper
(Terry)

P.S....I find it curious that none of the notables (Whit, Todd, or Pete) have chosen to respond about the exposure issue (Leaving the Shell game OUT) since posting the Oaths of the various established Magical Organizations...

Hmmmmm?
"Nemo has been found! He was on an Admiral's Platter at Red Lobster!"
Todd Robbins
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Did Criss just show how the trick was done, or did he teach how to do it?

Sorry for the delay in response. For some of us, it's a busy time of year.
Professor Piper
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Todd...

He exposed, so far as I have seen personally, levitating styrofoam cup; ash (lipstick) transfer; and salt shaker through table...

He showed the trick (sans explanation) then, after the commercial, he taught the trick (exposed it).

Hope you have a wonderful Christmas...

No problem with the delay and I'm hoping that wasn't one of those unintentional insults, because it's a pretty busy time of year for me (and other non-VIPs) too! Personally, I haven't stopped for a breath between gigs and shopping for a WEEK!

Prof. Piper
(Terry, who is looking FORWARD to a quiet Jan and Feb!)
"Nemo has been found! He was on an Admiral's Platter at Red Lobster!"
Police Magician
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If you remember some of the magic specials a few years ago, Mac King exposed some tricks as well.

Glenn
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Todd Robbins
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Quote:
On 2006-12-11 23:36, Professor Piper wrote:
Todd...

He showed the trick (sans explanation) then, after the commercial, he taught the trick (exposed it).

Okay, here is another way that we define things differently.

The masked magician showed the workings of tricks with no intention other than a salacious reveal of method. This is exposure.

To explain how simple tricks are done with the intention of inspiring someone to actually try them is not a bad thing.

Some might argue that this instruction was unsolicited and therefore was gratuitous. This same comment was made about Mac King's segments on the World's Greatest Magic Specials. I know of someone that saw those segments, gave some it a try, tasted success, went further with his learning and is now a decent magician.

Once again, this is not a bad thing.
memph33777
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Stuart let me tell you something. I am a street hustler and my friend who went to new york had been a monte player all his life. This is the only way he was able to win at monte. You seem to know nothing of the streets. Without rambling on and on in my opinion you are just giving your opinion from somebody who sits on the sidelines! I have made thousands of dollars playing monte on the street! Have you ever played monte on the streets? So if you havent I don't think you know what you are talking about. I have no reason to lie to you. I have turned the red card over on hustlers who tried to hustle me! So if you aint been in the streets please don't try to tell me about the streets! Tell me about some candy *** magic trick you do somewhere! lol
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