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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » If right you win, if wrong you lose... » » Criss Angel's boy exposes Three Shell Game on National TV! » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Todd Robbins
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Memph33777, are you a street hustler?
Professor Piper
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Quote:
On 2006-12-12 10:01, Todd Robbins wrote:

Okay, here is another way that we define things differently.

The masked magician showed the workings of tricks with no intention other than a salacious reveal of method. This is exposure.

To explain how simple tricks are done with the intention of inspiring someone to actually try them is not a bad thing.

Some might argue that this instruction was unsolicited and therefore was gratuitous. This same comment was made about Mac King's segments on the World's Greatest Magic Specials. I know of someone that saw those segments, gave some it a try, tasted success, went further with his learning and is now a decent magician.

Once again, this is not a bad thing.


You are addressing at least one of the main points of my arguement here Todd...

Simple tricks...

But who decides where to draw the line? What if Criss finds, say, "Ultimate Airborne" of any bottle to be a 'simple' trick and exposes it? What about the TT? Or IT? Zombie Ball??

The point is: There are too many interpretations of 'simple' to be narrowed down...Which is WHY exposure via mass media (Television) is specifically addressed in the various Oaths of Magical Organizations.

And although I am unfamiliar with the episodes that Mac King exposed tricks, it doesn't matter...

It's still wrong.

And so you know, this issue is important to me because of where I work and how seriously I take the Art of Magic...I work in a VERY high traffic Magic Shop (three of them actually)...The busiest of our shops is in the middle of a popular Theme Park here in Branson...There isn't a week that goes by that tourists (Whether serious about Magic or simply the curious) that don't either ask me to explain tricks or ask my opinion of Angel/Blaine/Copperfield/The Masked Magician/Local Magicians/etc...

During our peek season I meet and interact with roughly 50 THOUSAND people a week (Perform for a big percentage of them as well)...

I can tell you, as an honest observer and one schooled in observation (BA in Psychology), these folks are paying attention when Angel and others expose tricks...Some are OK with it, while others are angry...They tune into his show to be amazed, not shown how the stuff works...

If you think that a large portion of those who are exposed to the methods behind tricks simply forget them a week later, you are mistaken...And sure enough, one of those that caught the show will be in the audience of a Magician about to do, for instance, "Salt Shaker through Table" and will yell out how it's done and embarrass that Magician (Which is also a violation of many Magical Oaths)...

Exposure is a slippery slope and one that should not be tread upon lightly...

My question is this:

Why does Criss feel it necessary to expose tricks in the first place? As far as can be seen by the shows ratings and numbers, he's doing fine...Is it ego? I'm a superstar, so I can do whatever I want...

Or is it a misguided need to 'show off'?

If he is so interested in getting Magic into more interested hands, then do a Lecture Tour, charge a reasonable price, and show your stuff to those who are interested in PERFORMING Magic...

Not simply showing how certain tricks are done to everyone who watches his show.

Prof. Piper
(Terry)
"Nemo has been found! He was on an Admiral's Platter at Red Lobster!"
Todd Robbins
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Prof. Piper,
On your signature is the phrase "Nothing is impossible". Please revise that. Getting you understand my point of view is impossible.

Your last post brings up questions I have already addressed.

The segments were meant to teach. If they exposed anything it was how the viewer could do the tricks if they so choose to do so.

The fact that people come into your magic shops asking about Criss Angel (and Blaine and Copperfield) says that these people are keeping magic alive in the public eye.

Perhaps someone will yell out how the salt shaker vanish done, perhaps they won't and perhaps someone that saw Criss explain it will try it and succeed or perhaps they will try and fail.

Who knows?

Unless some really boneheaded comments are made by others and need to be addressed, this will be my last post on this subject.

And now, if you will excuse me, I have to go and keep Coney Island from being devoured by real estate developers.
Professor Piper
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Good luck with Coney Island, hopefully you will succeed...I'd hate to see that treasure lost.

As for me understanding you point, I understand it perfectly...

I, however, do not agree.

Why?

Because national television is not the sanctioned platform for 'teaching' Magical effects that everyday working Magicians use in order to earn their daily bread...

Plus, it goes against the very historical ethics that Magic is based upon.

If you can't respect the History of your Art, then you don't have any right to be a member...

And that is MY opinion, and I will stay true to it.

Prof. Piper
(Terry)
"Nemo has been found! He was on an Admiral's Platter at Red Lobster!"
Todd Robbins
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I'm glad we settled this issue.

I mean if something is not sanctioned, well, it just must not be done!

I'm not sure who is supposed to be doing this sanctioning, but whomever it is, it must be respected for they make the rules.

Maybe it is the IBM or the SAM that run things. I don't know. What I do know is that major magic organizations were responsible for the success of the major names in magic by awarding them the top honors of their organizations as these performers were making a name for themselves.

The exception to this is David Copperfield

and Doug Henning

and David Blaine

and Penn & Teller

and Siegfried and Roy

and Criss Angel

But that is beside the point.

What must be noted is that hundreds and hundreds of working magicians have been harmed by the teaching segments on Criss Angel's show.

Now, I have to admit that I don't know everything. I have only been doing this stuff professionally for about twenty five years. And though I am one of the producers of NY's longest running magician show and know a couple of hundred working magicians, I have to admit that I know of no one that has been negatively affected by these teaching segments.

But they must be out there.

I'm sure Terry knows hundreds that have had their ability to earn their daily bread harmed by these segments.

and if not hundreds, then dozens

and if not dozens, then a handful

and if not a handful, at least one professional performer that has had spectators interrupt their performance by blurting out how the salt shaker vanish, or the lipstick/ash trick or the truly amazing floating stryofoam cup is done because they saw it on Mind Freak. And if is has not happened repeatedly, well, I'm sure it has happened a couple of times or at least once, and it ruined the career of this performer. And if not ruined, it's harmed them in someway. I don't know how it would harm them, but it must and it is just a bad bad thing.

So, magic MUST NOT be taught on TV.

The historical ethics of magic say so. Now, I must admit that ethics in magic have a checkered past, except when it comes to the SAM and the IBM.

Yes, yes, I hear you saying that one of the founders of the SAM and the first Dean, Kellar stole tricks and routines from others. That's beside the point.

And it is true that a President of the IBM had a hand in the creation as series of print ads that exposed (without even the pretense of teaching) major magic tricks back in the 1930s.

But that's besides the point.

The most important thing to know is that Criss Angel is a bad man that has hurt many many good magicians.

Boy, I am glad I have finally thought deeply about this.
Police Magician
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I would like to add that Todd survived the streets sometime ago when he was put on the streets, with no money or credit cards, and lived pretty well by his skill and wits. Out of all who were part of this, Todd made out the best.

Glenn
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Professor Piper
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Gee Todd, you might wanna get your pants out of a bunch there pal...

(And here I was thinking you had posted that you weren't posting on this anymore, hmmm)

I'll relieve you of your feelings, oh great annointed one:

You MUST be right, because YOU say so...

It boggles the mind that a rule is a rule, until the current 'king' says it's not...

Since exposure is such a non-issue with you and your throngs of big-named buddies, then I will have no problems with anyone exposing any of your (and your buddies) creations...

Because it's no big deal, right?

If that's the case, then why was Angel so angry when his "Levitation DVD" was ripped and posted to YouTube?

Oh, I get it, if it's HIS stuff (or the other biggies) that is getting exposed, then it's wrong...

I see.

This goes back to Kindergarten rule learning pal:

A rule is a rule for EVERYONE, not just SOME of us.

Finite

Prof. Piper
(Terry)
"Nemo has been found! He was on an Admiral's Platter at Red Lobster!"
mota
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JTC (for those who do not know, that is short for a tap-dancing deity).

Exposure is a joke. It isn't an issue. People have been exposing things since I had a hairline.

I paraphrase here from another post. Doug Higley mentioned to me that there have been enough Svengali decks sold to put one just about everywhere but the deck is always new when people see it. When I pitch it I have found it to be true. I have talked to S. David Walker about this...he only has fifty years of experience with this. He just laughed at the ? and waved it off.

It doesn't matter.

No one remembers...no one cares...except for magicians.

Todd has twenty five years performing, David has fifty years, Doug has been around a bit, and I've been around a while myself. Not big names to the public...just hard workers.

I have used the french drop in a routine right after some had seen it exposed. No problem.

If you fear exposure you may not be skilled enough to handle your spectators. That is something that only comes with experience.

Maybe posting less about "gods" and practicing more with real people will alleviate these irrational fears of exposure.
Jeff J.
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It's hard to say which is worse. Criss exposing a few very old kids tricks on TV, or those magic stores, especially the very high traffic ones, that expose the very latest effects on the market to anyone with a couple bucks in their pocket.

If someone ruins your styrofoam cup trick, you can blame Criss, if someone ruins that latest and greatest effect that you saved up to get, blame those guys in the magic store.

Personally I think teaching a few cheesy tricks on TV do MUCH less damage than people like Prof. Piper who will expose ANY trick for a buck.

I don't even know why I bothered commenting. This has turned into such a ridiculous argument. Farewell.

Jeff
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I don't understand what all this whining and crying is about. All you guys learned magic because one of your own wrote a book or shot a video. Prior to that, you guys didn't know a double-lift from a rock.

I just finished on another thread about all the whining you guys do. the people that perpetrate exposure is your own heroes; Michael Ammar, Daryl, Banacheck, etc. They produce books and videos which anyone with money can buy... not just magicians. I don't see any of you condemning any online and brick and mortar stores for letting any lay person walk in and buy something.

Then you guys come down on Memph for laying it out. This I will tell you MAGICIANS ARE THE REASON EXPOSURE IS RAMPANT. You guys are also the reason a lot of hustlers secrets were exposed.

For those of you saying exposure is wrong... keep your ethics and morals to yourself and stop creating a demand for goods that expose things to the public.

stop your whining. if it bothers you so much take up gardening.

Ironically as this may sound, hustlers and cheats have more ethics and morals when it comes to exposure


C. Loubard
Professor Piper
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Absolute final comment on this, because some here just can't see the point


{Nice and clear}

When a person BUYS an effect, they are intentending to PERFORM the trick (whether it be for Mom and Dad and the Gang, or eventually on a Grand Stage somewhere)...

~reread the above~

Next

{Nice and clear}

When someone tunes in to a Magic Television Program they are expecting to be AMAZED and DELIGHTED by the performance of the Star...

NOT to learn how the tricks are done.

Magic shops are the reason for Exposure?

Sure, that floats about as well as a brick.

Get off of the V.ery I.mportant P.edastels some of you are on and remember, way back, when you were taught your very first trick...

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts whoever taught it to you added, at the end of the lesson, to KEEP THE SECRET...

Which is what I do after EVERY sell of a trick that I then explain and TEACH to the BUYER of the trick, NOT the store at large...

There is a difference here, it seems some have become too blinded by the spotlights in their eyes to see it.

Fine, so be it....Expose what you want, I hope at some point a spectator spoils one of your effects and then, maybe THEN you will actually grow up and see the difference.

Prof. Piper
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Todd Robbins
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Quote:
On 2006-12-13 10:56, Professor Piper wrote:
(And here I was thinking you had posted that you weren't posting on this anymore, hmmm)



I stated I was finished posting unless some boneheaded comment was made that required a response.
C. Loubard
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So, Professor! Based on your comment I take it you work in a Magic shop. If so, do you allow anyone in off the street to browse through books?

Do you honestly think telling someone not to reveal the secret is going to stop them?

Do you tell them this after they have bought the trick (meaning they own it), or did you tell them "The only way I will sell it to you is if you promise not to reveal the secret." My guess, after they bought the trick once they already owned it, in which case you have no right to tell someone what to do with the secret.

Do you take any extra steps in preventing exposure, such as having everyone who buys secrets sign a non-disclosure agreement? Let me answer for you... NO!

You guys are run by greed and are a laughing stock when you you cry about exposure.

C. Loubard
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Quote:
I stated I was finished posting unless some boneheaded comment was made that required a response.


LOL! Come on guys, now that's funny!

You think your playing with children??!? You think that "I thought you weren't going to say anything else" line was gonna fly?!??!!? Sorry Prof, I had to laugh, that was like watching a guy walk into a giant venus flytrap. Oh God, that was classic.

Sorry boys, Back to your...whatever it was you were doing.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
Todd Robbins
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Okay, now stop it, all of you.

I agree with Terry.

The rules are the rule. Now some will ask who made these rules, but that IS BESIDE POINT. Don't you understand? These are THE RULES.

And Terry knows what people want to see in regard to magic on TV. He knows why they watch it.

Nevermind that the A & E network spends a fortune on focus groups to find out what people like and why they watch what they do so that a show like Criss Angel's will attract millions of viewers. And pay no attention to the fact that these shows are created by professionals that have made their careers putting together successful TV shows. That all means nothing.

Terry knows that people watch magic on TV to be amazed and amused. They don't watch TV to learn. TV is not a sanctioned platform for learning. Oh, I know some might say that the teaching segments on Criss's show had some amazement and amusement as well as entertainment value to them. Well, if you think that, YOU ARE WRONG.

Please people, no more posts on this topic.

Let Terry get back to selling tricks in Branson.

And my friends, sleep well at night knowing that the magic shop Terry works in sells only magic from ethical suppliers that have never knocked off an item created by someone else and that these suppliers pay royalities to the people who invented these tricks.

Think deeper folks, please.

This is my absolutely last and final post on this subject because I have no more to say as this is the end of it for me and I will say nothing further*






*Until my next post.
Police Magician
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It is said that if you have 10 people in a room and ask them a question, you will get ten different responses. The same holds true here. Everyone has an opinion about something and many do feel strong about that. Whatever your feelings and reasoning on the "exposure" issue, your opinion should be respected, regardless if you agree or disagree with them.

Rodney King said it best after getting the stuffing beat out of him; "Can't we all just get along".

Glenn
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