Criss Angel, Penn & Teller, Johnny Thompson, James Randi, Mark Jennest, Mac King

These people are only being used to illustrate my example because we all know them.

The other side of the street we have Geller, Kreskin, David Blaine, Richard Webster, etc.

What has the first group done that on a deep level will forever damage their public persona?

Hands up who has the answer?
Yes you know and if you do not you will find out soon.

The first group has exposed to the general public the workings of their fellow entertainers.
And in doing so they diminish themselves.
Yes give this some thought.
Is that statement true or false?

They make nothing better by spurring us to come up with new methods.
That is however the answer to those who would question their unethical behavior.
(Hey wake up. Snap out of it! It is time to think)
This is simply a rationalization.
A candy coated ball of fecal matter offered by them and swallowed whole by many of you.
(Not such a tasty treat I think)
I am not inclined to take **** from any one especialy these guys.
I don't think y'all should either.

Please do not offer up the explanation given by the offenders but do as I request and please fire up the old gray Jell-O mold
and engage in some real deductive reasoning.

Question this situation.
You have to now because you have read this far.
Even if you stop reading now you will realize you have been doing just as I wrote above.
Letting them think for you.

Look, listen, feel, however you choose to process this bit of rational speculation.

We will start our little chat with Criss.

The guy demeans himself by exposing.
He diminishes his own work considerably.
He devalues it.
I guess that is an innovative approach to ruin your art after creating it.
Kind of like painting picture then placing it in a public urinal.
(How many of you just visualized that image in your head)

Do you know why it hurts you?
Do you know why in reality he causes far more damage to his image?

Kreskin writes a book on how to do what he does and but it does not diminish his image.

Do you know why?

C'mon let us see if possibly we can all get together on this and think deep.

I have my own opinion as to why these Magicians & Mentalists do these things but would truly like the opinions of others before I post my thoughts.
(It is not only the motivation of monetary gain)

Best Wishes,

Jim

Go get 'em Jim...I'm tired..Problem is you're preaching to the choir and the ones that should heed your call are not even in the church..Twas ever thus my friend..good luck with the crusade..

All the best,
John

Add Derren Brown to the above list of well known performers who have exposed other's work on television.

Put simply,it is the desire for 'Monetary Gain' vs Traditional 'Artistic Integrity'

I have not watched Criss Angel,however I did see Penn and Teller expose a method for a 'disembodied' illusion on America's Got Talent the other night.All for a few chuckle's,and I am sure a nice appearance fee.
I despised it,and somehow I got the feeling that many in the audience 'deep down' didn't care for it either.
I know many of my restaurant guest's,often tell me on their own,that they dislike exposure of magic secrets.

Jim:No disrespect,but I am still trying to decipher your post.Maybe you could simplify your thoughts for non analytical types like me.Some of it I grasp,and some of it I do not.Thanks.

Best.
Rich

I'm interest to know why Mark Jenest is on this list along with Criss Angel, Penn & Teller and Mac King...

My guess would be that he meant Mark Edward, but I could be mistaken.

Tony

I think Jenest did a 'teaching' gig on the Disney Ch.

TC.

You are correct, I had forgotten about that.

I couldn't agree with you more. Just the other day while working in the magic shop (I need to get out...it's driving me nuts. I'll talk about that later) I was thinking about how annoying magic is. One of the worst events in magic had to have been the appearance of the Masked Magician. While some magicians out there will defend him (why ever would you do such a thing?) and many will say that his tv specials merely challenged magicians to think more creatively, it's all BS (Perhaps Penn & Teller should tackle magical exposure on their tv show...I wonder what their stance would be.)

The Masked Magician specials took any 'magic' out of the entertainment. I am so constantly annoyed at how the general public has transformed the art of magic from an entertainment to a puzzle. Unless the magician is abusing his medium (television?) to perform something outrageously impossible, a lot of other (powerful) magic pales in comparison for our dear audiences.

I have less of a disrespect for Mac King and Mark Jenest because their purposes were a little different. The tricks they taught could be found by any seven year old going to the library. Simple tricks to 'fool' their friends with. But there's certainly a danger in this too. A kid who starts learning tricks will end up going to a magic shop and buying countless tricks that he'll never practice or perform. His motivation is simply discovering the secrets, and over time he'll think that he can learn the secrets behind any magician. The kid will then prance around his school dirtying the art of magic by proclaiming to know the secrets of television's "finest" magicians.

Why do they do it? (To finally answer the question) Well I'd never thought about a reason other than money. However, your post has sparked my thinking. Two possible reasons have come to mind. In the case of Penn & Teller (Derren Brown even?), maybe the exposure of other magician's secrets (obviously not their own!) will dirty their competition's image and bring the audiences back to witness a purer form of magic.

Another possibility is that these magicians feel that if they show magic secrets they demonstrate to their audiences how clever the magical race is. "We thought of a way to do the impossible. We don't have special powers...look! We were able to deceive you and trick you and fool you using clever principles and extraordinary skill. Don't you feel silly?"

In any case, exposure is seriously crippling the art of magic whether or not magicians see it. A magician might say, "Well since this trick has been exposed, I just won't do it" when the fact is that when one trick is exposed, a great many go down with it. It reduces magic to simple secrets and trickery devoid of any entertainment or bewilderment. An audience no longer walks away from an effect with a feeling of entertainment and wonder. Instead they walk away from it with a challenge to figure out the workings of the "trick." Even the words "magic trick" seem to bring about the feeling of "Okay, I have to start watching his every move."

This is why I'm growing more and more attached to Mentalism because there's so much more about it that feels real. Unfortunately, though, it means I have to completely disassociate myself from magic (at least when doing Mentalism)

This has been a fairly lengthy post for me, but it addresses almost exactly the strong feelings about magic that I've had lately.

What did he expose?

Let me start by saying I hate exposure as much as the next guy. Jim's point is a good one. It hurts the image of the performer that is exposing. I don't understand why Angel does not realize that? After he exposes one trick it is easy for layman to just say everything he does is one big trick. Taking him back to the position he so despratly is trying to get away from. It is ironic!

Having said that 99% of layman just don't care! If they had any interest in finding out and remembering magic they would be a magician. They just don't care. I know that is hard for a lot of use to believe. I have had a few people tell me how the 2 card monte is done because they saw the masked magician expose it. I perfromed it for them then asked how did I do that? They couldn't even tell me. Did it take the magic out of it? Yes. That is why I am against it.

If somebody really wants to learn how things work a simple Google search will expose a lot more magic than the masked magician ever thought of exposing. Nobody is searching though!

I think Jims point is it hurts the person exposing. Which I agree 100%

I think you did not get jim point, its not about exposing its about diminishing others work to bring them self on higher level (as they think). I could not agree more about Randi and Angel, hey if I want to see special FX il watch a movie if I want to know I to do it ill but a book. Magic is about the real world, real life situation if you cant make it with real live people than its not magic!! that's why Coperfield and Blain did briliantly what you see on tv is what you see if you where there.
Make the magic real.

More to the point: what does "Jim-Callahan" get from publicly slagging these people? Is insulting them and pretending to know their motives any more noble than what he accuses them of? Who is using whose fame for personal aggrandizement?


Here's a novel idea: why don't you ask them? Let these magicians speak for themselves. I don't know if they would answer sincere (and polite) emails, but you might get something quite interesting.

John

I AM HONORED to have had the b@1ls necessary to call you and try to make right past actions. You have said it all jim. BUT, there are problems:

1. As is with the "whats really paranormal" explanation, people can't see what is written. We live in self imposed test tubes and sometimes can't see through these tubes...

Magnus, Jims trying to open the eyes of magicians. or so it seems. Is he slagging? Not at all. Why is telling the truth slagging?

Magnus, Do you think Jim will now sell more tickets to his seance and gain world domination all because of a "semi-public" message on this board? Me-thinketh not...

What do you mean?

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 2006-08-13 11:43, Martin Pulman wrote:
Add Derren Brown to the above list of well known performers who have exposed other's work on television.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What did he expose?

The first thing Derren did on his very first special was expose the Princess Card Trick. He did to illustrate that what the audience was about to see wasn't mere "tricks" such as that.
I was really looking forward to that show (and enjoyed the series), but that first moment, with it's dismissive attitude to what people had seen before, and the needless exposure of a time honoured effect really irked me.

I'm happy to see that Scott & Jim have made nice because I like em both and I think that they have brilliant careers ahead of them, but if they'd spend a little less time here and concentrate on that endeavor perhaps it will become reality sooner and we shall see their show on the tube.

Finally, as some of the mentioned performers are advertisers here.. I wonder Jim if you care to predict how long before this thread gets pulled?

Until Next Time,
Sebastian Black

Well I would say since I advertise here at times and many of the people I support and have helped do also and since it is of value and not me just bashing and slashing.

I would say it stays for I will only be posting the truth.

And the truth is the greatest vector of change known to man.

As of yet I cannot see one thing that is not true and is not intended to make things better for all of us.

I am working on the TV deal now.
Just nailed down a monthly appearance on a ABC affliate.

Jim

H.O.A-X

PS. Scott did as he said.
Becouse of that I respect him.

Which special. I must have missed this.

You've left out the worst form of exposure of all:

Posters in Secret Sessions speculating about how David Copperfield effects might be performed.

The damage this type of exposure has done to Dave, one of the finest, kindest, most (....sniff....) decent human beings it has ever been my privilege to watch on TV, is just incalculable .....

OK Jim...What are you going to Expose? Are you going to turn the tables on them and give them a taste of their own medicine? That would only seem fair, fighting fire with fire......But, that would lower us to their level....?????
But just like THEY say, "By exposing this I will make you become better Magicians"...Is that what you are up to, Making them work harder to become better Magicians?