Jim,

Yes, I guess I am, but that’s because you are superior to me, and all the others that disagree. I should of known better than to cross pens with an intellect as wondrous as yours.

Best of luck with your, International Seance Project and the promised exposing of all the magicians you feel threatened by like; Angel, Penn & Teller, Johnny Thompson, James Randi, Mark Jennest, Mac King and others and I hope you find peace some how.

Best wishes and great success,
Tom Bartlett

Tom,

I am sorry if you misstook my assertion to imply a superior stance.
We have very divergant ideas on this topic.

Instead I might offer this started as a posting on art and those who ruin it.
(And why some people go along with it)

But as I said it was posted in the other forum.

Did you guys even notice that there is two lists of performers not just the one?
(The magicians)


-Jim

Jim,

So you have promised to expose; Geller, Kreskin, David Blaine & Richard Webster also, in conjunction with your International Seance Project and thereby join them. Great!

Best wishes and great success,
Tom Bartlett

Tom and I am surprised you would suggest such a thing.

-Jim

Recently reading Jim Steinmeyer's "Hiding the Elephant" - which he concedes could be seen as exposure in itself - I was surprised to find out that the great master David Devant was evicted from our Magic Circle (London), of which he was founder and first President, for writing his book, "Secrets of My Magic". It was deemed as public exposure. Hardly a lousy performer, johnnyimpossible. He was re-admitted at a later date. Interesting stuff, don't you think?

Cheers

Chris

Even gifted, wise people are capable of doing foolish things.

- entity

Payne gave you the word, so get started one secret a week.

Tom

You have found it difficult to grasp the main intent behind the original post and now you want to move on before you understand the first?

I don't think so.

-Jack

I find it interesting that you, Jim, have received a few great responses, like the one from toni42, that clearly state some great points contradicting your little tirade. And yet, you don't respond to one of these. Not a single one. In fact, you continue to post in your high and mighty manner (which you do indeed have) as if no one at all has responded intelligently to your posts. Ridiculous. Are you blind? Perhaps just a simpleton? I've seen you also blatantly insult a few members as well, so I believe my doing so is perfectly legit (and yes I can paste the insults if you need).

I will just reiterate what others already have, something you seem unable to respond to. Perhaps its because it blatantly proves you to be close minded and unable to actuallly argue with someone able to make logical intelligent statements.

People like Randi and Houdini could be considered to be exposing secrets. However they could also be considered to be exposing specific people. People who would claim their tricks are real magic powers and would then use these powers to defraud others. From what I can tell you support this. I have a huge problem with it myself, as do many others it seems.

So, from your stance, since you seem to have issue with someone exposing another from using magic and tricks in such a way, I assume that therefore means that you agree that it is a valid use of these tricks to defraud others. So its ok to take advantage of someone who has recently lost a loved one, claim you have psychic powers, charge them a huge fee, and then "talk" to their loved one. Now of course your silly rebuttal in some high and mighty language will claim that you never said any such thing. No you didn't. Feel free to try and rip my post apart and insult me all you want. Though I'm sure you'll just refrain from responding as you have to all of the well thought out legitimate postings I've seen. Fortunately I could care less what egotistical self appointed enforcers like yourself have to say about anything. Life is short and I've got to get back to enjoying some magical presentations by some truly terrific entertainers. Many of them being ones you seem to hate. A wonder I've never heard of you.

Jim-Callahan,

That which you have posted, already speaks so loud, that all that read this post, now know what kind of person you are.
It is truly pointless, to try to communicate with you, when you deny all reality, and wont even acknowledge, what you posted earlier.

Tom Bartlett

P.S.
negrette, great post!

The issue remains.

The inability of come café members to hold private discussions via PM is its own issue.

But in a way that also exposes something about our community.

Communication skillz?

John,

I have attempted to keep it on track.

-Jim

This is a slightly entertaining thread and sorta like watching a slo-mo car crash, I can't pull my eyes away....

There's something ridiculous about how this thread is framed. I mean, the initial post, wassup widdat? what's the real motivation for starting this thread? How can you blame someone for thinking it might be to gain the originator of the thread attention? (As opposed to a sincere question of ethics)

Has the converstion has gotten off-track or is it spot-on? I got my own feeling about it. You have yours.

It IS momentarily interesting. Like eating popcorn. A little bit of fun while it's happening and utterly meaningless in the next moment.

Man! Am I bored!

Oh well....

Reese,

As I stated this was originaly in the mentalist forum.

It is now out of the context.

-Jim

Jim,

You hit the nail on the head and also right into a sore spot in this community.

I get the feeling that many if not most of this community not only does not care if the audience believes in some form of magic, but also wants to deny the sentimental experience themselves... just tricks.

I'm for magicians and against folks who want to seem 'clever' at the expense of respecting their audiences.

I respect Jim as a mystery performer and take into account his saying this thread has strayed from where it was originally posted.

Still, the thread now exists in the 'ethics' forum. I understand Jim isn't part of the dialogue any longer. So...

Jonathan... I don't think anyone here is interested in depriving audiences of the o.m.g; WOW! feeling. But what about the point raised about some of the folk Jim cited as 'good' examples (...of those who never expose) Some of those 'pros' he cited put out material that can be used to decieve those who are in a vulnerable position; i.e. have lost loved ones, are seeking answers to questions that magicians would do well to stay away from answering.

That is an ethical concern well worth exploring within the confines of this forum.

I don't see it as folks wanting to appear clever versus 'real' magicians. It's a question of conscience, a question of ethics.

About that question... have you read The Prestige?

Exposure is wrong from an ethical standpoint, sure, but from a practical one, I am continually amazed at the vehemence with which the magical community will slam someone who exposes magic and then, in a few years, turn that person into a paragon of magical virtue.

Henry Hay is a superb example. When he published the Amateur Magician's Handbook, many of the SAM membership wanted to outrigh LYNCH the guy! He was EXPOSING may of the greatest secrets of Our Art! Card handling, levitations, linking rings and so much more!

Yet, today, his book is considered an essential part of any well-read magi's library and his name is spoken with reverence.

The same goes for Blackstone, Sr., yet he exposed numerous tricks in several weekly magazine articles and advertisements! So did , if memory serves, Dunninger.

Yet magic goes on.

Randi keeps tipping the CURRENT methods of some of the BEST mentalists on stage today. Methods that few, if ANY actual working psychic readers would touch with a te foot spirit rod! Yet, for most magi, Randi is a paragon of virtue, because he is "proecting the public," yet another mentalist appears on a TV show and exposes a coffee cup "glimpse," a bogus one at that, and everyone is up in arms and bans him from their magical lecture tours!

Talk about a double standard!

The Masked Magician "reveals" a levitation and everyone goes bananas over it. Organizations are formed, letter writing campaigns start up, feeding the network's mind with the idea that people actually WATCHED the show, when the ratings for it didn't really support that attitude all that strongly, leading to two more specials for the unknown performer, who, when he revealed his true identity, it was to a resounding "Who the *(&^# is THAT?!" from the audience in both the theater AND at home!

And a letter to the magic magazines from Jay Marshall saying that he was going to drop HIS levitation because of the exposure because he couldn't figure out how to get the forklift up to the third floor of the Lodge Hall he was to perform at that week!

And now, less than five years after the Masked Magician's appearance, the public has almost completely FORGOTTEN him! If they DO remember him, they certainly do NOT remember the methods of the effects he tipped!

Don't believe me - ASK your own audiences!

The public simply does NOT care all that much about how we do what we do. Besides, for every tricj we do, there are at LEAST fifteen different methods... apply yourselves!

Lee Darrow, C.H.

I guess you did not read the first post did you Lee?
(Or possibly undertand it)

Man it bugs the heck out of me that guys get to be so close to death and still do not learn anything from the trip!
(Yep Lee in case you did not notice we are both on the short side of time on this side)

C'mon do you really not get it?

Are you possibly playing idiot to have some fun.
If ya are good one and if not I am sorry.

J ack

I agree that lauding those who take it upon themselves to "share" what is not theirs is awkward and perhaps hypocritical.

Does this mean it's okay when someone puts up a YouTube video completely exposing MOAB or nail writing and one ahead stuff cause folks will simply forget in a few minutes?

My boss at work showed me the Balduci levitation and some Downs coin moves.

Believe it or not, most muggles have longer memories than goldfish.