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Stephon
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My better judgement tells me to stay out of this; however, if I listened to my better judgement, I never would have gotten into sideshow.

The (very old) quote, "Those who can, do. Those who can't do, teach" does not mean that if you teach, you are a failure in your profession. If it did, then both Harley and Todd would be failed sideshow performers.

It means that those who are skilled in their profession usually *do* what they are skilled at. (If you love to sing, and can get paid to sing, then you'll work as a singer.) These people may teach from time to time, but that is neither here nor there.

Conversely, those who do not have the skill to succeed in the performance of their profession often turn to teaching it to others; they already know the topic, so it's a logical (and easy) progression. Occaissionaly, they may find opportunities to perform, as well.

Do you really think all those university Acting professors would be teaching if they could be taking bows on Broadway five nights a week, twice on Sundays?

Nigel, if you are a professional performer, working regularly and known formost as a performer, then don't worry about the quote. Just let it go. It doesn't apply to you.

If you've tried to make it as a performer and can't, well, just stiffen that upper lip and admit that you are a teacher, who performs sometimes. Nothing wrong with that; you may have a lot of experience and knowledge that could be useful to others. (If you happen to be a lousy teacher, well, then find another line of work.)

There is no shame in being who you are.

The only reason someone has to be insulted by that quote is if they know (but don't want to admit) that they teach because they can't do.

~Stephon
~Les S. Moore, The Dapper Dipper
Swami Yomahmi and Cheeky Monkey Sideshow

"Comedy is a man in trouble." ~Bill Irwin
Kondini
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Bravo!!!! At last the voice of reason.

On a Judo gradeing basis I would guess that Nigel is a blue belt,,,but you have to gain a Dan before you can become the Master to the Pupil. You can not award yourself a Black belt you have to work your way up.

I will leave this thread for a while as I have put my quids worth in and will watch on with interest to other points of view.

Ken
itshim
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I started very early on in this thread saying that I was a teacher first and became an entertainer later. I now make almost all of my living as an entertainer but also make a certain income teaching the skills I have learnt over the last 18+ years.

Stephon, the reason that quote is insulting is because it is used by students who have no respect for their teachers to denigrate them and by people who have never tried teaching to suggest it is the easy option.

So suggesting that I am a teacher who performs sometimes is very wrong. Suggesting that teaching is an easy progression is wrong. And letting quotes like that go is wrong as well.

Perhaps it is because I come from a juggling background that I see things differently from magicians and sideshow entertainers. Jugglers are willing to show anyone their tricks, they know how hard it is to do them and so if someone else wants to put in that amount of hard work they help. Magicians seem to be much less willing to teach anyone anything unless there is a lot of money involved (even on this site). Roslyn wanted to know how to learn sideshow skills. I have yet to see anyone here offer any help (other than me offering to teach him fire, and I would imagine he already knows it).

Nigel

Waiting for the next set of insults to come his way
I knew a man who kept saying "pliers, pincers, scissors". He was speaking in tongs.

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Stephon
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Quote:
On 2006-09-26 03:53, itshim wrote:
Stephon, the reason that quote is insulting is because it is used by students who have no respect for their teachers to denigrate them and by people who have never tried teaching to suggest it is the easy option.
You misunderstand my intention--I didn't say teaching is an easy option, in and of itself. I said that if you are already very familiar with a doing something, then it is easier to transition into teaching that subject than it is to start from scratch in a completely new field.

And if you feel denigrated by students who use that quote, than that is, to be blunt, your issue, not theirs. The only reason to feel insulted is if you can't admit that they might be right. Would it really be so awful to say, "Yes, it turns out I'm better at teaching than I was at [x]."?

Again--there is no shame in being who you are.

There have been times when I have "done". There have been some times when I have taught, because I wasn't getting enough offers to "do". During those times, I was teaching because I couldn't "do". Big deal.

Quote:
Waiting for the next set of insults to come his way
Please re-read my post. I did not say anything insulting. If you read it that way, I think that's more a result of interpretation than intention.

~Stephon
~Les S. Moore, The Dapper Dipper
Swami Yomahmi and Cheeky Monkey Sideshow

"Comedy is a man in trouble." ~Bill Irwin
itshim
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Quote:
And if you feel denigrated by students who use that quote, than that is, to be blunt, your issue, not theirs. The only reason to feel insulted is if you can't admit that they might be right. Would it really be so awful to say, "Yes, it turns out I'm better at teaching than I was at [x]."?


I've been in the situation where that quote has been used as an insult. It is much easier for someone who isn't in that situation to say you shouldn't be insulted than for someone who is. But apart from that, I dislike the suggestion that if I am teaching somebody something that means I can't do. I've repeatedly stated that I make my living as an entertainer not as a teacher and yet both you and Kondini have taken my statements to mean that I am a part-time entertainer and more of a teacher. My background is as a teacher, like many other teachers I moved from that to doing something else. Should I turn the quote around to 'Those who can teach, those who can't do'? No, it is equally offensive in either context. Teaching should be through your desire to impart knowledge to others, not because of your ability/lack of ability to 'do' the particular thing you are teaching.

So Stephon perhaps you can understand how I can feel that both the original quote was insulting and your statement
Quote:
The only reason someone has to be insulted by that quote is if they know (but don't want to admit) that they teach because they can't do.
is equally insulting. I do and I teach and I dislike the implication however put that I do one because I can't do the other.

However none of this has anything to do with Roslyn (or anyone else) learning sideshow skills. I personally would suggest that if he were to spend a year doing street shows around the world (especially at the various festivals) he would meet enough different performers that he would see how most of these skills were done and would get peer to peer tuition. It's how I learnt escapology, swallowing razor blades, walking on glass and a number of other skills. It is not how I earn a living now but it taught me a lot. Perhaps someone else has something equally constructive to write.

Nigel
I knew a man who kept saying "pliers, pincers, scissors". He was speaking in tongs.

www.itshim.co.uk
Stephon
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Well, I don't want to make this a long drawn out, and ultimately meaningless back-and-forth, so I'll just make a final attempt to clarify that I was not trying to insult you.

Quote:
I've repeatedly stated that I make my living as an entertainer not as a teacher and yet...you...have taken my statements to mean that I am a part-time entertainer and more of a teacher.
You'd have to show me where I did that. I do not believe I did.

Quote:
I dislike the suggestion that if I am teaching somebody something that means I can't do.
I NEVER said that. In fact, I said exactly the opposite, that there are successful, by any standard, performers out there that also teach, and I gave Todd and Harley as examples.

To simplify, "Some can do, and teach."

HOWEVER, there are also people who couldn't make it as performers, and so they turned to teaching. That is fact.

I never made a judgement as to which category you fall into. That is for you to decide.

I also said that if someone who falls into that second category is simply honest with himself, and acknowledges that he is primarily a teacher and not a performer, then there is no one who can insult him about it. I *did not* say that *you* are in this situation. I simply responded, somewhat philisophically perhaps, to your statement that the quote was insulting.

I understand that you are insulted by it. I am not. I simply suggested that if you find it offensive, perhaps you, not me, but you should examine why.

Let me be very plain--I have responded to what you have said, and how you've said it, in your posts. I am not trying to insult you. I do not know you. I am not implying anything about your abilities.

~Stephon
~Les S. Moore, The Dapper Dipper
Swami Yomahmi and Cheeky Monkey Sideshow

"Comedy is a man in trouble." ~Bill Irwin
Kondini
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Thought to post this here as it bears relevence.
Will be performing at the Goldington Rally the weekend after Maybank.
With fire eating etc,,,as we will have time on our hands would look forward to people with teaching ability in any sideshow skills to come and show us how to do it !!!! Properly ?

Of note also (See All Tied up Threads) Yesterday we had a very happy day in the company of UKEA members with the annual meeting being held in the centre of Northampton.

Ken

BTW Will let you all know the outcome of our lessons when we get back from Goldington,,,, we are always eager to learn from the masters of our art!
dave_matkin
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KEN, Stephen and Nigel.

I know only one of you. You know who you are. If I say I really enjoyed the UKEA meeting will it give it away?

For what it is worth:

I am a teacher – I graduated from uni in 1997 and worked for 3 years as an analytical microbiologist. In my role I was teaching a college to carry out duties in the analytical microbiology lab (just want to see how many times I can get analytical microbiology into a sideshow forum [yeah that’s three times so far] how many more times can I get analytical microbiology in to the post?). I really enjoyed the teaching. I also quite enjoyed the microbiology – but I left to re-train as a teacher. Not because I couldn’t do the job but because the pay was naff and I wanted to work with teenage kids. So I went from science doing to science teaching. I am not insulted by the sentiment in “the quote”. Why should I be? I have stopped teaching science – I have re-trained in dyslexia and literacy and now I am looking for a job. I am also dyslexic – may be the saying means I can’t do being dyslexic anymore and need to teach it instead?

What I really wanted to say is this:- Nigel this is a stereotypical view that really only fits a small minority of teachers – in a wide range of subjects. Not all performers who also teach are crap at performing – just like not all teenagers are little ****s (you should know that being a maths teacher). But then not all great teachers who teach tricks well (weather magic, juggling or other [notice how I skilfully avoided fire!]) and are technically accurate are good performing. Performance as you will all know is not standing on a stage and doing a trick. It’s how you present it …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… and then once you have peeled the egg and put it in your mouth you suck……….

Any way – I am not trying to learn you anything here. I want to tell you 2 things – stop arguing don’t take something personally when it is an inaccurate generalisation.

And 2 my favourite:

When I did my PGCE in 2000 I was taught by a Guy called Richard Bierr. He had worked at Warwick uni for a long time. He came to do an observation of my teaching at a school in Birmingham. His one bit of advice for my practical lesson was “you could try setting them off a few at a time to do the practical. A bit like a carousel.” OK I thought may be I will try it one day. I was talking to the other science student later and he had said exactly the same about her lesson as well (even though she had a much smaller group and it was not necessary – later we found out much to our general amusement that he had suggested the same thing to no fewer than 12 other PGCE students. Apparently there had been an article in a magazine that he had read. Needless to say he had never really impressed us and we were not really convinced by his ideas.

Any way move on a few years and I have moved school to one in Coventry (just behind Warwick University). And within a few months I was asked if Richard Bierr was still at Warwick university teaching on the PGCE course. I found out that he had worked at that same school. For a week – before he left as he was unable to cope with the kids in the class room. That was 30 years before. He had spent 30 years teaching how to teach and had only lasted 1 week in the real word of teaching. I had absolutely no respect for his ideas of teaching in a class room.

So is the phrase “those who can do and those who can’t teach and those who can’t teach, teach teachers” fair or true? Well in his case yes. But I will say this I had another lecturer who had worked at Warwick uni on the teaching staff of the PGCE department for 20 years+. Does the phrase fit him? No – and I respected him ever so much and his ideas for teaching, classroom management and more. When he said this is a good idea you would try it out. Why the difference. Well his job was teaching the teachers and he enjoyed it. But he had taught for a while before going in to teacher training and he kept teaching. He did at least a few days a month – more during the times we were not at university. He kept his skills up – and he was an authority on the subject – in essence he was a professional teacher as well as a teacher.

One other thing – I don’t think Ken could teach for toffee! But I think he would be an excellent mentor and an excellent roll model for an apprentice. One could learn so much from him. But I don’t think he could deliberately set out to teacher. It’s a subtle difference but I think I know what I mean.

In short take everything you read with a pinch of salt. If it is insulting think about why. If some kid said that to me at school I would say well you are right there ……… I couldn’t do ……… and have any money left at the end of the month. Now I get to play at science (the fun bits – but none of the naff stuff like writing reports every day and NAMAS accreditation) and get paid more!

Oh and by the way NAMAS is an accreditation company for scientific companies including Analytical microbiology Laboratories (yes made it to 5!)
Kondini
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We seem to be missing the crux here. I mentioned about 2000 posts ago that I was not aware of a qualification that qualified anyone to teach fire eating or sideshow skills.

By definition a teacher of anything in order to ply their trade has to show proof,,,ie,,,in the form of a document,,,proof of a course in the subject undertaken or recognised certificate of verification in said subject. This is why we have teacher training colleges and Uni`s,,,so that people can train in their chosen field, graduate and end up with a piece of paper which qualifies them to teach others.

Anyone who sets themself up as a self proffessed teacher or cleric or plumber or doctor without a proven qualification would be considered a cowboy,,,right!

So I stick to my guns.

I shall be at Stoke Goldington Rally after Maybank, and look forward to viewing the qualifications of any self professed teacher in fire eating etc etc.

I doubt any takers will appear, but if I should be proved wrong,,,,I will publicaly eat a Higley Zibbit in the centre of the showring on the final day !

Also I shall set myself up as a fully qualified sex therapist, having studied this field for many years I think I could teach a few!!!

Ken (Unqualified sideshow performer but fully qualified plumber!).
dave_matkin
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Im printing my certificate out now ....... complete with reassuring burn marks round the side of the paper.

You are absoluty right about having to be "qualified" in order to teach - and the same with plumminng.

KEN I have PMd you abou this littel rpblem I am having with the wife........ but that's for me my wife and my new sex therapist!!!!

I am sure you could teach me more than a thing or two! I will see you in SWADLINCOTE!!!!!! complete with my certificate (if anyone else wants one I will gladly post one to you - only £20 each fully authenticated etc. Smile
thegreatnippulini
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No, I think Ken prefers the toffee for payment in other areas in life.....

You Brits and your toffee!

And what's up with beans and toast?
The Great Nippulini: body piercer, Guinness World Record holder, blacksmith and man with The World's Strongest Nipples! Does the WORLD care? We shall see...
http://www.greatnippulini.com
Harley Newman
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Oh no! Ken goes down the tubes!

Nipps, he wants to be a sex therapist, but the beans take care of some of the OTHER plumbing.
“You can’t depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus” -Mark Twain

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Kondini
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Smile Smile Smile
Kondini
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OK,,,just got back from the Northampton Rally and guess what!!!! Haha the qualified fire eating "Teacher" never turned up,,,,many enquiries found Dave Solo, The Paper Wizard, The Pirate Stiltwalker and The Tallest Magician in the World all from the Milton Keynes area,,,,but no Teacher !!!!!

So I rest my case,,,there are sayers and do`ers.
The sayers will never be do`ers and the do`ers will never be sayers,,,such is the showbiz.

Then there are "Teachers" !
When you can find them??

Ken.
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