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nathanallen Special user Des Moines, Iowa, USA 522 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-03-12 16:12, DanHarlan wrote: LMAO Dan's a genius. Never saw that one coming. Happy Linking! Nathan
Nathan Allen, The Maniac of Magic
www.maniacofmagic.com To buy a prop is nothing. To write a good routine is something. To really entertain an audience is everything. |
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Dynamike Eternal Order FullTimer 24148 Posts |
I am presently working on a 9 and 10 ring routine now.
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mcharisse Inner circle York. PA 1226 Posts |
Many of the old timers used a lot of rings because they added the key later and it is less likely to be noticed. So there's a logic to a lot of rings, though 16 seems like a lot.
I do like the idea of handing out all the rings before adding the key as this is the form in which the trick is the most baffling. Levent has a great discussion of this in his Roy Benson book, and I agree with Benson -- if you don't hand the rings out, the trick is meaningless. Marc |
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JNeal Inner circle I used to have 999 posts, now I have 1617 Posts |
On 2009-08-19 08:57, mcharisse wrote:
"if you don't hand the rings out, the trick is meaningless." I respectfully would like to say that perhaps "meaningless" is not the right word to use here but rather "less convincing." Those who have made the most out of unexamined ring routines do so during those time periods when the interest in magic is highest, and are trading on the generally accepted knowledge that "those rings can be examined, I've seen it done before". In other words, when the general lay public has seen enough magicians to have a collective understanding of the plot and the examinability of the rings (Malcolm Gladwell's Tipping point) one can make a fairly convincing (note the use of the word fairly) effect. There is no doubt that in certain hands this can still create a strong and memorable performance that will be remembered long after less skilled practitioners have handed out all the rings. .
visit me @ JNealShow.com
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
The problem with most larger multi-ring routines is the confusion which we typically use to our advantage. That also reaches a tipping point where the confusion factor outweighs the effectiveness. The goal is to have a fairly straight forward and easily followed routine which doesn't require excessive thought to keep track of.
As one who has heard first hand the gasps and frequent uncontrollable profanity uttered during a performance of Jonathan Neal's two ring routine, I can attest to it's effectiveness. His oft copied routine definitely stems from his mastery of not only the pure mechanics of the effect but the psychological ones as well. The ripped off versions typically fail as the mastery just isn't there to provide the necessary ease which supports the suspension of disbelief. It is true that in the hands of a master, two unexamined rings can transcend 20 examined ones.
Ray Pierce
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JNeal Inner circle I used to have 999 posts, now I have 1617 Posts |
Thanks Ray for the fine words.
...the uncontrolled profanity was on occasion, me muttering a running commentary to myself on my failure to execute a move with sufficient skill LOL! In thinking about this... this morning, I am wondering what it is about this effect, that demands examination as the ultimate proof. Many spectators who examine the rings have been heard to utter things such as; I KNOW there is a hole or way to open the rings ...I just couldn't find it. Is that really a higher threshold of conviction? Is it because we know we CAN hand out the rings ...that we demand that it be done? Other stage penetration effects such as silk thru' cane (via reel) are not examined or questioned. Might it be in this case that the clarity of effect precludes the need? Because the performer appears to be 'doing nothing' and it just happens? Because he repeats it immediately without any clue as to method? Are stage penetration effects held to a different standard than when the effect is performed in closeup or parlour settings? Because close proximity to the rings themselves seems to almost beg for immediate examination. As another example, ...and Ray I KNOW you have great familiarity with this as do I, the Tenichi Thumb tie might be the ultimate convincing penetration. it combines the use of common examined objects, the intimate involvement of a audience member in the process of tying. This tying is NOT a sidebar of the momentum (like examining rings)...it IS the raison d'etre. Add a series of cumulative effects, each supporting the plot and if cleverly constructed... each apparently disavowing the methodology and you have the ne plus ultra of penetration effects. It holds a much higher level of conviction than the rings ever could. BTW_ I don't discount the carefully reasoned arguments that my good friend Levent makes in the Benson book, in fact, to some degree, I think Levent might have softened his argument out of consideration of our long time friendship! However, each performer must examine the effects he does, in the light of how it advances the overall plot, and pace of his show, relative to other material and it's position in the program....and factoring in the power and stength of personality that he or she brings to the equation. I am reminded of an effect that Fred Kaps used to lecture on, which was a wand or pen thru' silk. Nothing was examined, and it looked just like he passed the wand right thru' the center of the silk without any moves at all! The method was a razor cut slit cut in the silk. Now Fred Kaps could get away with that rather obvious method because he WAS Fred Kaps. After all his highly skilled magic, presented with his confident and charming manner...he absolutely KNEW that he could sell this effect with a bold method, but not as an opening effect. It would be after a point in the program where the audience was fairly well convinced that he could do anything. One has to know where to place a routine in a program as well. Again, thanks Ray!
visit me @ JNealShow.com
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
I cite one of the most commercially successful linking ring routines of our time.
Jay Marshall's... and he never handed any of them out for examination.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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JNeal Inner circle I used to have 999 posts, now I have 1617 Posts |
This thread has kind of mutated from "how many rings are used? " to "are handing out the rings necessary?" and I apologize for my part in making that happen. The point might be to use as many or as few rings as you need to do the job of creating a memorable and convincing performance.
BTW- How many rings did Dick Zimmerman use in his abbreviated rings on ribbon version of Concatenation? I'm sure it was at least 16!
visit me @ JNealShow.com
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
That was one wild and crazy effect... and WHAT A SWITCH !!
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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JNeal Inner circle I used to have 999 posts, now I have 1617 Posts |
HIs milk trick was my favorite part of the act....
visit me @ JNealShow.com
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
That was a great act for sure. Wonder if he still has the props. When that milk container came apart... it was a jaw dropper.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
Yes! The plexi bucket was amazing.
I remember doing a chain welding routine with at least 10' of links... I guess I should have counted how many "rings" were used!
Ray Pierce
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JNeal Inner circle I used to have 999 posts, now I have 1617 Posts |
Not to derail another thread, but I think the pail that came apart, was a reworking of the Himber upside down pail, and Ray...what I liked about the Plexi bucket was that it raveled inside the pail...making of a very compact yet full sized effect.. Now the only thing missing was him shouting..."Be There!" at the appropriate moment of the milk's return!
I'd love to do that routine today!
visit me @ JNealShow.com
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bojanbarisic Elite user Croatia 462 Posts |
Dick Zimmerman used 16 rings
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
Jneal... why not contact Dick and maybe he'll give it to you.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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JNeal Inner circle I used to have 999 posts, now I have 1617 Posts |
Impressive my friend Bojan that you would know that, of course, I was just going off my memory and wans't sure...now I am!
Pete -an excellent idea! I wonder if he still has the props ?
visit me @ JNealShow.com
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Mac_Stone Inner circle Miami, FL 1420 Posts |
I use 103, beat that Pete!
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
On the "hand out the rings' theme, I used to have six rings given to spectators as they entered and offered to be a volunteer if needed. I would have them hold the ring high when I needed a volunteer and gathered the rings during the show. After doing a 4 ring routine I never had to pass anything out. Now I focus on single ring effects, but some link together accidently if I don't watch them closely.
Someone should write an article on switching ring sets.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Levent Special user USA 801 Posts |
Hi Guys:
I still stick to my basic thesis from my book "Roy Benson By Starlight", that the most deceptive way to do the "Linking Rings" is to make the audience believe that ALL the rings have been examined by the spectators (this usually requires a lot of rings). There have been many great performers who have done routines without examination of the rings and there is no doubt that such routines can be VERY entertaining, beautiful and commercial. But I am of the opinion, that IF you really want to fool that hell out of the people, nothing beats totally examined rings linking and unlinking at will. Also, if you ask me who did the most commercially successful ring routine ever. I would say without hesitation it was Chung Ling Soo in the heyday of Vaudeville. Incidentally according to the December 1903 issue of Ellis Stanyon's Magic, Chung Ling Soo used 10 rings with a key ring secretly added to the mix by his female assistant. Best regards to all, Levent http://www.LeventMagic.com
Levent
www.LeventMagic.com |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Two hour sermons and three or four hour Chatauqua lectures were very popular in the heyday of Vaudeville.
Houdini would take 45 minutes to get out of a pair of handcuffs. Try any of that today. |
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