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Clark Special user 957 Posts |
What classic plots or effects do you see performed (or that you perform yourself) for lay audiences that you think should basically only be magician effects?
Surely there are plots/effects that are a little on the esoteric side and consequently provide no interest nor entrainment value to a lay audience. I'm very interested in everyone's thoughts on this one. Clark
“The key to creativity is in knowing how to hide your sources.”
Albert Einstein |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Context gives meaning to an effect.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-09-08 14:48, Jonathan Townsend wrote: ...which serves as a launching pad for the audience. I've used the following quote from Johnny Carson many times: "If they buy the premise, they'll buy the bit."
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Clark Special user 957 Posts |
Jonathan, first, of course I agree with your statement, but surely you are not saying that every belabored mathematical principle, or over-worked for the sake of being sleight heavy handling can be justified through presentation. I guess I should clarify that I am not only looking at what is entertaining, but I am also looking for magical content in a spectator's mind.
“The key to creativity is in knowing how to hide your sources.”
Albert Einstein |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Sorry Clark, I would not know about belabored or sleight heavy routines as I focus entirely upon what the audience gets to see in performance. Any backstage work is mere method to achieve the desired audience side effect.
There is at least one group of people in our society who spend much time exploring how patterns of numbers can yield significant utility. To them, a seemingly abstract or random process of counting which yields a surprising result may be the very routine they enjoy and request most often. Imagine using a classic f**ce and then a completely obtuse counting procedure done with all seriousness for an audience of cryptographers or mathematicians... ;)
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Clark Special user 957 Posts |
I agree completely, but unfortunately the 'backstage' work is exactly what is apparent in some effects as they are demonstrated to an audience.
That is funny, good point! I'll be more specific, but still walk softly. I have seen many HUGE names in the coin world who, in my mind, do work that is only magic for magicians. Producing fifteen coins from two closed hands that were barely even implied empty, much less proven empty beforehand is not magical in appearance to a laymen, but it is impressive to a magician. It is so well received by the magicians who like to be impressed with skill that the creator (and everyone else) looses focus on the fact that it is not in any way magical...but conversely only impressive.
“The key to creativity is in knowing how to hide your sources.”
Albert Einstein |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
There are very plots in card magic and I doubt if there is any new plots let alone ones designed for fooling magicians. I don’t know about classical but card guys are always fooling each other for fun of it. I don’t think it is supposed to be entertaining just wicked, but I love being fooled. The card tricks might be the same in effect but the tricks they get up to would be lost on an audience. Taking dead aim is perhaps the most fiendish of it.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Clark Special user 957 Posts |
Hi Tommy, great point. I love the feeling of being fooled as well. If my memory serves me well you enjoyed one of my effects quite sometime ago titled, "All's Fair Sandwich." It is a good example, I have fooled many magi with it as that is what I contructed it to do, but I haven't shown it to many laymen as they are not tuned into that in particular. I can get more "magical content" out of some of my other stuff.
“The key to creativity is in knowing how to hide your sources.”
Albert Einstein |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-09-08 15:43, Clark wrote: For a non-magician audience? Perhaps we are better off not discussing the habits and beliefs of those who narrate their effects as opposed to presenting them. At least when it comes to non-magician audiences there is not so much "magic" as "puzzle" to be found in such presentations.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Clark Special user 957 Posts |
That dosen't address the original post, we have gotten side tracked somewhat.
Am I to take it that you feel that all magic is layen magic?
“The key to creativity is in knowing how to hide your sources.”
Albert Einstein |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Clark, some of us have spent MUCH time working on John Ramsay's tricks. Even when doing something for magicians it seems he wanted to make a magical moment or two for them, not just impress them with fussing.
By and large I get the feeling that most in magic work toward eliciting a feeling of being tricked or puzzlement, not so much wonder. Puzzles stump you, trick fool you, magic offers something else.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Clark Special user 957 Posts |
Ramsay's work in incredible, no doubt. I have seen his work brought to life by Carney, Conover, and a few others. It was magic to say the least.
I would have to agree with you on you thoughts about most effects bringing out sense of being simply 'tricked' and not magic.
“The key to creativity is in knowing how to hide your sources.”
Albert Einstein |
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Scott Compton Special user Hampton, VA 747 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-09-08 17:01, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Hmmmmm.....very good.
Magic is an art. I am merely a tour guide.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Scott-Compton-Magician/160270640674735 "You are the magic" Jay Ose to Albert Goshman |
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Big Daddy Cool Inner circle 1604 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-09-08 15:43, Clark wrote: Oh, I have to disagree. Miser's Dream is a classic of magic. When done well, it captures the audience's imagination in a way that no other "trick" can. Take a look a Jeff McBride's routine. Simple and direct. What makes it so wonderful is his use of a junior assistant. One of my students who is very good at complicated sleight of hand does a misers dream that stuns the audience! And it isn't because of the "work" it is because of the context, and the premise. His set-up hooks 'em fast and they are ready to follow him anywhere. It is ALL about context, premise, story, presentation, whatever you want to call it. Create the right setting and the audience will follow you wherever you lead! |
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karbonkid Special user 951 Posts |
I don't think that every effect can have a presentation/story that will hook an audience. Most of magic is highly illogical anyway and some effects, will simply fall flat, no matter what presentation/context is given.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
For example?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-09-11 13:22, karbonkid wrote: Quote:
On 2006-09-11 15:34, Jonathan Townsend wrote: I'm curious, too. I'm suspecting that any trick named, if looked at hard enough will reveal it to merely be a variation in theme or presentation of some more basic plot. If true, it goes back to the arguement that the trick itself is not the culprit in a search for a trick that is "too esoteric" for laymen.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Thanks Michael, I was going to suggest a combination of the Red Snapper and Imp Bottle presented as if the "imp" left the one and jumped into the other.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Big Daddy Cool Inner circle 1604 Posts |
Ooh, that could actually be a fun premise...
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
I've seen a couple of different people take the so-called slum magic props and tweak them into some of the best pieces of magical theater I have ever seen. I think it would be a really great exercise in creative showmanship.
Of course these are still classic effects with more likelihood of finding an appreciative lay audience than one of magicians. That's how they got to be classics, and eventually slum props. I think the original direction of this thread was leaning heavily on some of the effects that you typically see in the convention hotel lobbies after midnight... stuff that only finds an appreciative audience of magicians because it is more a vehicle for a deviation move, than a new trick. Kind of an exercise in dead-horse beating.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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