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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
A deviation move?
dead horse racing? Michael your bizarrist side is showing :D
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
One of many, to be sure.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Clark Special user 957 Posts |
Big Daddy Cool,
I'm not talking about classic handling for Miser's dream. I'm talking about exactly what I said, having fifteen coins in various palms and producing them without any sort of proving that they were empty. I'm afraid my side of the argument will be weak as I cannot give a name here. I find no class in that, but there is a HUGE name right now that does coin magic of this sort all the time and it is praised by magicians. In my mind it has no validity to a real audience. It is magicians magic, plain and simple.
“The key to creativity is in knowing how to hide your sources.”
Albert Einstein |
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karbonkid Special user 951 Posts |
Michael,
That is exactly true. Some plots, particularly collector plots for cards, or coins across for coins, it can just be people doing magic to fool other magicians, which, really is annoying. This makes the magician, who is fooled, feel like it is the best effect that he has ever seen, for method, or some other silly magician thinking premise, and not necessarily a good plot. A lot of the magic I have seen lately, at least in the limelight of David Blaine, Criss Angel, etc. is just terribly presented garbage, or even in some cases, no presentation period. Then, I see young kids doing the same thing, giving no presentation, they see and emmulate these folks. So I'm led to believe one of three things, either the magic is just for magicians and really doesn't need presentation due to the nudge-nudge-wink-wink foolery of magician magic, or that the magic is so illogical that it truly can defy a logical presenation, or that we don't try hard enough find a logical 'reason' within the magic/method. Actually, I believe it's a combination of all three. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Why are we paying attention to those whe don't present their magic? Surely there are better magicians to watch.
Leave the fussing to "move monkeys" and "one trick ponys". Onward
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Clark Special user 957 Posts |
I do agree Jonathan, honestly, but I also feel that no amount of presentation in the world makes up for bad routine construction. it's a one coin routine that uses twenty different concealments and mucho hand washing. you may place an entertaining patter with it, but you made it entertaining, not magical.
it is simply a watch me hide the coin from you sequence, no laymen really believes it was ever gone. this is the example of magic that has no business feed to laymen that you guys asked for by the way.
“The key to creativity is in knowing how to hide your sources.”
Albert Einstein |
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karbonkid Special user 951 Posts |
Absolutely agree. But I'm trying to figure if it's the plot/method that are not workable, or the overall effect itself...and if, in fact, some effects just simply cannot have a plot/presentation. There are 100's of assemblies (card and coin) and 100's of collector type plots, and 100's of coins across, so is the effect only different to us, or interesting to us because we know the methods, or know the known methods, thus seeing something new sparks a interest and removes you from the boredom of performing this classic effect differently. Sometimes that is a great thing...sometimes it hurts.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
I dunno, after finding a cute application of JWGrip I wonder if it's simply a matter of finding a match between the magical effect and the tools onhand.
For example, what may be a dreadful One Coin Routine when done with patter may be just right when done to music.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Clark Special user 957 Posts |
I'll bite, I guess it's possible, but I have my doubts. I think it still borders on entertaining and not exactly magical. good point though.
“The key to creativity is in knowing how to hide your sources.”
Albert Einstein |
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Big Daddy Cool Inner circle 1604 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-09-12 10:12, Clark wrote: OK, point taken. That is obviously a problem that someone with no experience in structuring a theatrical performance. They believe the magic is the move, rather than the presentation. For example, my student Lonny came up with a really neat variation on the bill switch that allowed him to do a second transformation and end completely clean. It is a neat technique. Unfortunately the routine he created to showcase the technique was rather lack luster. The problem wasn't the technique, it was the presentation. When I pointed out the flaws of the presentation and he changed it, the routine became truly magical. |
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Isn't much of this debate directly in line with what I said earlier?? Tricks that seem to make the list of bad magic are nothing more than poorly constructed routines, i.e., presentations of more basic, classic plots and themes.
Twenty different concealments of coins, and too much hand washing in order to do the Miser's Dream has probably already struck out on a failing path in the area of presentation... long before music or patter comes into play. However, the basic plot of the Miser's dream is valid, classic magic. I think there is a mistaken notion that tricks (or magic) are defined by the commercial names given them. "Miser's Dream version 1.0 through 8.4.2 are good except for versions 5.1, 5.1.4, and 6.2." Maybe too much concern for figurative land-grabbing?? Is there a problem seeing the forest for the trees?? Now, in a quest for fairness... I suppose there is nothing wrong with having a hobby. Even nerds need comparative nerds.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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karbonkid Special user 951 Posts |
I'm not saying it's bad magic, I'm saying that things that people consider even good magic have horrid premises, coins through table is a great example of this. There are a myriad of versions, not one is that much different, effect wise from the other. What you are defining as bad magic, which I interpret to be slum magic, are basic and thus, truly good magic. Although the means and effects are simple they are understandable to anyone who views them.
I am speaking to basic effects. Coins go through table. Wah. What is magical about that? And how is it different than coins going from hand to hand, or into a bucket? Then it comes down to presentation...does your presentation make it magical or simply logical, or simply entertaining? |
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Clark Special user 957 Posts |
Now the nerd thing was funny, I needed a good laugh.
I never said the Miser's dream as a plot was bad. I gave an example of a trick that was for magicians and not laymen. The hand washing crap I brought up is a good example of magicians that are fooling themselves and showing magic that has no place in magic for laymen. This example has nothing to do with the Miser's dream. I agree with what you are saying Michael, I am just pointing out that there is magic that isn't fit for laymen and that no amount of presentation is going to fix it. Yet, 90% of the coin workers that you see feed directly from these self masturbatory displays because they, as magicians, enjoy the cleverness of them. They in turn go out and show it to laymen as "magic" when it is nothing of the sort.
“The key to creativity is in knowing how to hide your sources.”
Albert Einstein |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-09-12 12:01, Clark wrote: That was an example of a handling or procedure, not the routine, its presentation or its setting.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-09-12 11:55, karbonkid wrote: In my book, there is a lot magical about coins going through a table. The basic logic understood by ALL laymen is that if you place, drop, or even slam something on the table, it stays on the table... it doesn't fall through. Quote:
And how is it different than coins going from hand to hand, or into a bucket? Now you are getting warmer. This is all an extension of the basic effect: impossible translocation. The difference between hand to hand and through the table is the change from horizontal to vertical movement and the addition of an obstacle. Quote:
Then it comes down to presentation...does your presentation make it magical or simply logical, or simply entertaining? Now you are arguing the same point I am making. What you seem to be missing is that presentation begins with routining. Quote:
On 2006-09-12 12:01, Clark wrote: You are dancing so close to the fire here that I'm surprised you haven't felt the heat yet. The magic is broken BECAUSE of the presentation, and not in spite of it. (See my statements above.) Quote:
Yet, 90% of the coin workers that you see feed directly from these self masturbatory displays because they, as magicians, enjoy the cleverness of them. They in turn go out and show it to laymen as "magic" when it is nothing of the sort. Well, it's still magic, but it is a very poor display of it, and certainly not the representative sample that is going to ink the big sale. What you have offered is an example of a bad choice made by the magician. In essence, you, like our other friend above, are arguing over the same frustration... one that I feel, as well. What I am really hoping you will come to recognize, is that if there is to be blame, it must be placed on the proper thing... magicians who confuse prop juggling with magic; magicians who display a lack of aesthetic sense when it comes to routining an effect. Sometimes they are caught up in their own fascination with the methods, be they moves or props. Sometimes they are without a real understanding of what it is they are trying to convey. Sometimes they miss the target completely because they are focussed on being different. To be very specific in my opinion... Do I think there are certain RENDITIONS of magical effects that are better than others? Yes. Do I think some of the worst should never be shown to an audience? Yes.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Clark Special user 957 Posts |
Michael, I fail to see how you didn't just repeat what I said, just in different words. Esentially we agree on the topic, at least for the most part.
I do disagree about the magic being broken because the presentation. There is no trace of magic in the handling that I mentioned despite what presenation you come up with. A poorly constructed handling will never be magical. Keeping in mind that the very same handling may be great for loosing magicians,they are trying to keep up with where the coin is and they are one step behind. My point is to not confuse that handling with something that is magical looking to laymen. Laymen see it the same as magi do, simply clever and skillful. Posted: Sep 12, 2006 1:18pm ---------------------------------------------- Jonathan, we can play on words if you like, but my point is that with said "handling procedure" it makes no difference what your presentation or setting is. When the routine's back-bone consists of a handling that is as I described, there is no magic there for a nice presentation/setting to enhance. You are simply wasting your time putting "lipstick on a pig." Once again, if you place a wonderful presentation with the handling that I described earlier, you still do not have magic. You have something entertaining, which is a different outcome than what you set out for. Hopefully the final product will be both of course, but an entertaining presentation without magic doesn't make a magician, it makes a likable teacher.
“The key to creativity is in knowing how to hide your sources.”
Albert Einstein |
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-09-12 13:03, Clark wrote: Clark, Let me rephrase my thought to directly address this concern that you have. Your last sentence ("A poorly constructed handling will never be magical."), is very true. But it is not separate from the presentation. It is my contention that routining is a part of the presentation. Let's start with the basics from square one: 1) It is desired to perform a magic effect. (Next is to decide which of the basic effects will be performed.) 2) The particular effect to be performed is that of production and/or multiplication; something from nothing. (Next it must be decided WHAT will be produced. 2) The choice has been made to produce coins. So far, everything is still magical in essence. Nothing has deviated from the basic premise that coins produced where none existed previously is a magical effect. 3) Now must be decided, how the coins will be produced... from the hands?... from a silk square?... from a box?.. from a tomato?... from the exhaust pipe of a purple 57 Chevy? It is at this point that the presentation begins. This is the beginning of how the magical effect is to be conveyed to the audience. Everything from this point on, is subjective, contextual, and ultimately destined to be a good trick or not.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Big Daddy Cool Inner circle 1604 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-09-12 13:03, Clark wrote: And this is where I solidly believe that someone who understands how to structure a theatrical performance will not use moves or techniques that do not move the story along. In other words a good, solid, correct presentation itself will ferret out those types of moves and magical masturbation. Does that make sense? I know what I want to say, but I'm not sure it is coming out... Posted: Sep 12, 2006 3:55pm ----------------------------------------------------- Quote:
On 2006-09-12 15:05, Michael Baker wrote: This is close to where I am thinking Michael. If you start with a technique and then create a presentation, you've gone backwards. It does work sometimes, but usually not. What does work is the process you laid out. Creating the presentation and the method at the same time is the way it should be done. |
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Clark Special user 957 Posts |
Hi Michael,
I absolutely agree with what you are saying, 100%. I agree that routining is part of the presentation.Your break systematic break down is how good magic should be constructed for sure. I guess my point, more or less, with my initial post was to bring out the fact that many magicians (and I mean big names) have lost sight of what is magical, for instead, what is skillful in appearance. I do not feel that a proper distinction is made between the two whatsoever. I the distinction is made up front then creating is much in line with what you listed above. Without great thought put into what is magic and what is not, then we get handlings for effects like I started this thread addressing. One of my main points to try and bring out with this thread is that magic is a most sad state when the largest percentage of its practitioners see what I have described as magic, but I guess it keeps butts in the lecture room seats.... Anyway, I have immensely enjoyed your insights on the subject Michael, the Café is lucky to have the likes of you to express your thoughts. H*ll, I enjoy reading back through some of your old posts as there are some nice bits of knowledge and experience for sure. Thanks again, Clark
“The key to creativity is in knowing how to hide your sources.”
Albert Einstein |
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Clark Special user 957 Posts |
B D Cool,
You were quite articulate with your point as well, thanks for taking the time to share you thoughts boss.
“The key to creativity is in knowing how to hide your sources.”
Albert Einstein |
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