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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Street Magic » » Criss Angel's book (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Dave V
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I certainly hope you're not referring to me. I'm in complete agreement with your last post.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
frenchmagi
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My Sincerest apologies VanVankranden. I did think your last post was directed at me . Happy to hear that we're in unison.
Dave V
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Apology accepted. Although I feel exposure is generally bad, the part I especially dislike are the ones you speak of who have "no skills to pay the bills" and typically don't even realize they're that bad.

Magic conventions are great examples of both types. The unskilled ones hopefully learn about their weaknesses (but seldom do) while at the same time the skilled ones constantly fool other magicians time and time again, in spite of the fact the audience knows how the tricks are done.

Gazzo covers this in his lectures about when spectators "call him out" he simply brushes it off with "Yeah, yeah, I've heard them all, fake thumbs, hidden pockets, whatever...just shut up...) Of course his delivery is uniquely his and I'd never get away with it, but it works for him. He generally acknowledges their explanations and simply brushes them off and continues with his show. The same applies when he deliberately "exposes" an extra ball during his famous Cups and Balls routine. He makes some smart*** comment, does yet another fake transfer and he's right back in position to go once again.

Exposure doesn't have to hurt you if you handle it properly. When Criss Angel's show exposed the Shell Game, some of the best shell workers in the world said it didn't bother them one bit. A "Mark" with limited knowledge of how the game works might think he has an advantage, but a good worker will prove they can be taken down even harder.

It's a mark of a true professional to not let this "exposure" talk get the better of them and just get on with what they do best... entertaining their audiences.

I just read tonight that Criss' book has two parts. The bio section was written for him, and the magic section was written by a very well respected magic writer and publisher. I doubt anything that's in this book will harm our profession in any way, and might actually help recruit some "new blood."
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Dannydoyle
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I don't see how the "shell game" exposure hurt anyone.

As I said the cigarette companies did it in the 30s. HOUDIDI exposed mediums as a hobby. He was the most famous man on the planet. Still around and he isn't.
The fake preachers, televangelists, faith healers, all exposed, none seem hurt by it.

Let's take the "shell game" as an example as it seems to draw the most fire. First off even if your looking MOST workers can't be caught short of grabbing the hand. The "mark" feels educated, and any worker will tell you THIS is where the money is.

Perhaps it is the half hearted magicians, the guys on the other side of ralpho's example who are mad. Not wanting to put in enough work to be good enough to fool, though the method is known.

Like I said it is the fact that he falls into line with those he tries so hard to separate himself from.

I still think we are just negotiating a price, and that makes it repulsive.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
killermagic80
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You guys all are great!

So from tomorrow I will go out and expose my invisible deck, sponge balls, some nice colour changes, invisible loops, ambitious card, and many other strong effects.

What's the problem. it doesn't hurt anybody as you say.

I don't understand you at all, and I am really disappointed by the above posts.

A magician NEVER reveals his secrets. we do not negotiate ANYTHING, and we do not expose ANYTHING.
Dannydoyle
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So where do you work and for how long? You claim the title magician, so how long have you made your living at magic?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
killermagic80
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Dannydoyle that doesn't have to do with how long you have to be in magic or where you perform.

Whether you are 1 month in magic or 40 years, you should not expose any secrets.

Whether you are a non famous local magician or David Copperfield, you should not expose any secrets.


(by the way because you asked me, I am 26 years old and I am into magic since 9)
SeaDawg
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Magic is very much in the eye of the beholder...
Whether it is a simple sponge ball vanish or an elaborate handling of a complex routine, if the audience is amazed... then the "Magic" happened.

I truly believe that the sense of wonder and awe in magic should be treated with respect. Just because we know how it is done doesn't mean we should every take the liberty and ruin it for someone by exposing the "secrets".

If we focus on spreading the sense of wonder and amazement and spent less time trying to reinforce our own egos at the expense of others, we as a profession would be much farther ahead. I have adopted the tact, then when approached with the "Criss Angel or David Blaine does so and so..." I say "Yes, and this is what I do... Since there are ten thousand plus magic tricks." And then I perform...It works for me...
Crazy people take the psycho-path thru the forest...
Dannydoyle
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When we whine that secrets are exposed then we tell people we are nothing but our secrets. We should be more than that.

You have been in magic since 9. Great how many paid shows? Not many because you duck the question so don't bother to answer.

See guys working know what a short memory the public has, and that we are more than just the sum of our tricks.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
killermagic80
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Dannydoyle don't get angry!

I have performed 679 paid shows. 57 of them were special occasions!

what are you talking about!

I will answer you. I used to tour the Greek islands performing magic 6 days a week. one week on stage and the next week close-up.

I was also performing magic on TV in Cyprus on a weekly basis.

I performed for many occasions, and big outdoor events.


If you want to tell me that people have short memory, this I know it very well.
BUT that's not an excuse to expose the secrets
Dave V
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Quote:
On 2006-09-20 17:54, killermagic80 wrote:
You guys are all great!

so from tomorrow I will go out and expose my invisible deck, sponge balls, some nice colour changes, invisible loops, ambitious card, and many other strong effects.



That's not exactly what I said, or meant. *I'm* not going to expose what *I* do, but on the other hand, I'm not that concerned about what *others* do. There are so many ways to entertain that even if they did know *a* secret, they can never be sure I'm using that *same* secret or something else, and once they realize that the secrets don't matter, they can still be entertained.

I didn't say exposure doesn't hurt anybody, I said I'm not going to allow someone else's exposure to hurt *me*.
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killermagic80
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Of course that's right and I totally agree.

Of course we will not allow someone else's exposure to hurt us.

But we just cant calm down saying exposure will continue.

By not allowing someone else's exposure to hurt us is defence.


We have to attack back and be against exposure too.
Dave V
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Let's draw a comparison to a quote I once read:

"The opposite of Love is not Hate. The opposite of Love is Indifference."

See where I'm coming from? The more we yell and fuss, and stamp our feet, the more they know they're onto something and they continue to do it.

This is one time where "Ignore it, and it'll go away" actually can work. Once they see that we're not affected by what they say, they'll move on and take their games elsewhere. Pro Wrestling perhaps.
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killermagic80
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Maybe you are right.
Slim King
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I can't ignore this exposure (Johnny Thompson). It has cost me REAL MONEY. Maybe just a couple of grand per year....but it adds up! Danny...How much did you lose by the exposure of the Three Shell Game? If your answer is NOTHING, then you have NO ROOM TO TALK. This exposure HAS affected working entertainers. I'm one of them. When Johnny Thompson comes to Daytona, he'd better be looking over his shoulder! Smile
Johnny is supposed to attend the Daytona Magic Convention. I performed there last year, but I'll steer clear this time! MAYBE????
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
killermagic80
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(sorry guys. where I live we don't watch the mindfreak shows. I have seen the season one series from the 2 DVDs. I didn't know that Johnny Thompson exposed the three shell game).

And just something to add on Slim King's comment: is not only the money you lose from that exposure, but also the time and effort magicians has put in order to perfect this wonderful routine.
Dave V
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This is not to say what Slim does is wrong, I've never seen him so I can't know that, but I do know there are some wonderful handlings out there that even if they do know that the pea doesn't stay in the shell it started from, there's no way to tell where it goes. The operator can relocate the pea at will to any shell he desires and the hand movements are identical. In fact, in some presentations you actually tell them the pea doesn't stay under the shell it starts from, and you demonstrate (not to the extent that JT did, but they get the idea) and they still can't follow your moves.

If you haven't seen it already, you MUST get the School for Scoundrels DVD on the Shell Game. Whit's moves and improvements just blow away anything magicians *think* they know about about handling the shells.

So Slim, I'm sorry you're losing money at the game, but you might be able to regain some of your losses with Whit's improvements. Are you playing this as a magic trick? (busted, exposed, time to move on) Or as a real game, or pseudo-con game? This is the only way I'd consider using it, and the possibilities I mentioned make it a routine where you simply can't lose.
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Slim King
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I perform for Conventions...Follow the Pea...no betting, just lots of fun for the conventioneers and myself. I also do a poetic version of the Ultimate Three Card Monte....Is that to be exposed next?
You must convince the booking agent to book the Three Shell Game. They know of the exposure. They'll just book something else....no skin off of their nose. They still make their commission. Smile
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Dave V
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Okay, so it's more the booking agents than the spectators... I know you can entertain the socks of the spectators whether they know how it's done or not. Convincing the agents to give you the chance? I hadn't considered that part of it.
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Beth
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Quote:
On 2006-09-20 19:15, Dave VanVranken wrote:
Let's draw a comparison to a quote I once read:

"The opposite of Love is not Hate. The opposite of Love is Indifference."

See where I'm coming from? The more we yell and fuss, and stamp our feet, the more they know they're onto something and they continue to do it.

This is one time where "Ignore it, and it'll go away" actually can work. Once they see that we're not affected by what they say, they'll move on and take their games elsewhere. Pro Wrestling perhaps.


"The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference. "
Elie Wiesel

With all due respect Mr. Vanvranken to use Elie Wiesel's quote seems an odd choice to me to promote ignoring exposure. I understand your sentiment that ignoring something will discourage it from flourishing, but that quote, taken from Elie Weisel's speech called "The Perils of Indifference" doesn't in my opinion in any way promote that ignoring wrongs will make them go away. Just the opposite in fact.

What Elie Wiesel was saying with that quote was that to ignore a travesty...(he was speaking of an even greater transgression the Holocaust of course)... is wrong. To ignore a transgression simply makes the one looking the other way as guilty as the perpretrator.

I think if we love magic we do not look the other way or ignore exposure. Which is what Elie Wiesel's quote was promoting. If you have love for something you never ignore the wrong being done to it.
Peace Beth
"All creative art is magic, is evocation of the unseen in forms persuasive,enlightening, familar, and surprising."
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