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Vlad_77
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Hey all,

I just purchased a beautiful set of mini cups and balls. I am looking for a routine to do with them that is NOT a three shell game. One of the cups is chopped and they are are a beautiful heavy brass. I wanted to do a short c&b routine whilst table hopping but never wanted to carry around a full sized set. Since I do a three shell game already, I wanted something different. The real problem isn't so much the ROUTINE as it is the final loads. Obviously I do not want to use 3sg "peas" as the working balls as I feel it leads audiences to the conclusion that their small size leads to easy concealment; which they do of course. The final loads are not so impressive as those found in a standard set although the idea of easy concealment never seems to come into play. Spectators... oh well, it IS they who pay the bills.

ANY help would be appreciated. I know that Scott Guinn put out a manuscript awhile back on the mini cups but I cannot recall the title or who published it!

Thanks all!!

Vlad
Dave V
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Scott Guinn self published it, and it's still available from him. You can PM him here at the Café. I'll have to take a look at the routine again, but I don't think it's very well adaptable to these cups but I could be wrong.

I've resisted the temptation to buy these Magic Makers cups as I've heard too many bad things about them. They do look cute, but they seem so impractical compared to the shell game and a "real" C&B routine. As you have already learned, final loads are no bigger than standard balls, and the working balls are better described as "peas."

Instead, I went with Gary Animal's "Golf" cups. Even though they're heavy guild metal (Bronze) they're not much heavier than your mini-cups. Plus they have the advantage of a golf ball size final load.

Glenn Bishop used to have some demo vids of the MM minis in action. Maybe you can contact him and see if it's still on his site somewhere.
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Richard Evans
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By studying routines for regular cups and playing around with different moves, you could easily make up a routine for mini cups. I can only think of four published routines that are specifically for mini cups:

  1. Griffith, Tony. Miniature Cups and Balls, in: Griff on Close-Up. The Supreme Magic Company, Bideford, p. 16.

  2. Guinn, Scott. Great Scott's Table-Hopping Cups & Balls, in: Great Scott! It's a Magic Lecture.

  3. Kort, Milton. Cups and Balls in Miniature, in: Kort is Now in Session. Ireland Magic Company: Chicago, Illinois, 1962. p. 41-52. This routine is also published by RNTII as ‘Milt Kort's Miniature Cups & Balls Routine’: it’s advertised on their website for $10.

  4. Magini. Mini Cups and Balls, in: Abracadabra, 19th August 1967. Vol. 44; No. 1125: p. 103-105.

Unfortunately, those little Magic Makers cups are more 'micro' than 'mini' and I doubt that these routines would automatically translate to cups of that size. With those cups you're better-off doing some sort of thimble rigging routine.
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Dave V
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I just checked Scott Guinn's routine. Looking at the moves, I suppose it's possible but you might have some difficulties in a few spots due to the tiny balls and the shape of the interior of the cups. He uses a wand throughout the routine and you can substitute something smaller as long as it's still long enough to do a "wand through the hand vanish" or prepare to substitute a different vanish.

You can practice a C&B "tip over" move and see if it's practical with the little balls and cups. I'm suspecting they'll just bounce or roll out due to the small rounded interior. If it works, then Scott's routine might be a nice one to start with. I bought Scott's routine for the Golf cups before realizing I needed one of them to be "chopped." In fact, this might be the motivation I need to go ahead and order these tiny jewels and play with it myself.

If I may ask, what's the largest load ball that you can fit and still set it flat on a table? And, let me know how the tip over move goes with these.
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Glenn Godsey
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Quote:
On 2006-09-26 18:18, taliesin wrote:
....
Unfortunately, those little Magic Makers cups are more 'micro' than 'mini' and I doubt that these routines would automatically translate to cups of that size. With those cups you're better-off doing some sort of thimble rigging routine.


Yes, the word,"mini" is a meaningless term. Recently, after spending a couple of hours with Al Schneider, I tracked down a set of Morrissey "mini" cups...that is what Al's cups were originally called. The "minis" have changed since the time Al bought his, but the newer design works fine for Al's routines. My "minis" measure 2 7/8" tall and the inside diameter is 2 3/8". These look like a slightly smaller regular cup rather than a "mini".

The basis of Al's great routine is the ability to hide a large load ball in your hand resting on the table. Al uses 2" knitted load balls sold by Morrissey. If you haven't seen Al's cups and ball routines, go to the World Magic Center and check it out. I have been in magic for many decades and I didn't think that a cups routine existed that could fool me...but Al's did! He completely changed my philosophy and approach to the cups. I was using large cups (Animal Babes) and was a doing a Cellini-like routine. Now, I much prefer the smaller intimate approach of Al Schneider.

Best regards,
Glenn Godsey
Vlad_77
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Thanks a lot to everyone who replied!

I suppose that for now I will use them as a thimble rigging routine. Fortunately, my dealer wanted rid of them so badly I got them for a real bargain price. If they were just a little larger....

Thanks again guys! Perhaps I will try a cups and coins type thing. I'll let you know if I come up with anything!

Best,
Vlad
Scott F. Guinn
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Actually, I use very tiny cups when table-hopping and full-size Johnson cups when performing for larger audiences. My routine is equally effective with both. It uses one regular cup and the chopped cup from the combo set, and it is most definitely NOT a "shell game" routine.

All of my books and lecture notes are out of print. If you're interested, you can get the routine from me as a PDF file. It's 11 pages with 59 photo illustrations. Paypal $10 to:

scottfguinn@msn.com
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
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Dave V
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As Scott said, his is definitely not a "shell game" routine. I'll find out for myself soon enough. My order for the micro cups was processed and I should have them by the weekend.

Just some food for thought: I also ordered a Blacks Magic PK Ring. I experimented with some neo mags last night and found I can "chop" my Animal Golf cups just by wearing the ring and holding the cup in a particular way. I know others in the past (and presently) use similar methods. It should be fun to see how this experiment turns out.
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Dave V
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Okay, my order came in. Here's what I learned so far:

The micro cups are too small and heavy to be useful for much of anything. C&B moves are out. I tried the "tip over vanish" with limited success as the pea rolls around rapidly in the rounded interior and with only an inch to work with, it can easily bounce out. So are most Shell Game moves. The standard pinch steal is nearly impossible as the cup is too tall to hold in the traditional "Shell Game" fashion. I was hoping to use the School for Scoundrels Perfect Pea (magnetic) with the chopped cup, but the pea is simply too strong. I'll have to experiment with some standard peas to see what I can come up with. Otherwise, I'll be shopping for Thimble Rig routines for this set.

I pretty much knew all this going in, but I had to see for myself. They are cute though...

The Black's Magic ring is beautiful! Fits perfectly. It doesn't work well with the micro cups as they're simply too small for the ring to make contact with the cup. I do get some magnetic pull but the cup is too thick in places. That, combined with the awkward grip required to contact the cup while wearing the ring rules this combination out.

However, my hand geometry is such that the Golf cup fits perfectly in my grip so the ring contacts the side of the cup. The Morrissey Chop Balls were too heavy, but they did stick and are usable. Frank Starsini's felt chop balls are absolutely perfect! They are lighter, and have a stronger magnetic pull. No fussing with position, as long as I'm holding the cup, the felt ball is drawn to the ring and clings there beautifully. This now means that the Golf Cup can now be used as a Chop Cup at will. The only thing I can't do is let go of the cup while the ball is hidden, but I can work around that.

So, I now have two new toys. A set of shiny little dust catchers for my display case, and a powerful new weapon to use with the cups I already had.

Addendum:
Off topic, but it started with the MM cups, so here goes:
Regarding my Golf Cup/Black's Ring combo I said earlier that I had to keep my hand on the cup to retain the ball. That's not exactly true. All I have to do is let the ball drop to the table under the cup and it'll immediately cling again when I grip the cup. I don't even have to be touching the cup with the ring, but it helps. I have about a 1/8 to 1/4 inch "window" where I can hold or release the ball at will through the cup walls.
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Muckey Spleen
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Those little MM cups make good slingshot ammo. Anybody see the eBay listing a while back - a set of MM micro cups (from France, if you believed the seller), a few mismatched mini wands, some assorted balls, and a little silver jewelry box they'd all fit in for only five hundred bucks.
Andy_Bell
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I did see that and quite happily ignored it as the junk that it was,
Can't really comment on the MM cups as I've never handled a set but I certainly wouldn't have paid that for them even with the free jewelry box and wand set. I hope it didn't sell.

Andy
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Mad Jake
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The Milt Kort miniature cups and balls routine is great. http://www.magicinc.net has the Milt Kort book Kort in Session, not only does it include the cups & balls routine but a nice variety of other effects, not to mention, it's cheaper than our Milt Kort Miniature cups & balls book by a few dollars. Just do a search on the Magic Inc. site for "Kort".

The last I saw that France version of the MM mini cup slugs it was down $79.00 LOL and he still hadn't sold them. Thank goodness.

Jake
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Eddie Torres
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I too bought a set of mini brass cups where one was a chop cup. I couldn't think of a very decent C&B routine but I did put the chop cup to good use. I do a brief chop cup routine with 2 mini baseballs as the final load and ending in a shotglass vanish. It's about a 3 minute routine and it works for me and I'm sure many other people are probably doing something to this effect. It's nothing revolutionary but it leaves plenty of pocket room and it gets a great reaction.

~Eddie
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Bill Palmer
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Watch out! MM has just come out with a miniature cup set that is similar in appearance to a Paul Fox cup. They are made of spun brass. I will be posting a review of same in the review section. They call to mind a mummy in its sarcophagus. Shiny and pretty on the outside, ugly on the inside.

They will take a golf ball, but not much more.
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Magic.J.Manuel
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I got a set of these little brass Cs&Bs before the GA-Golf were available. I was disappointed in that they are strange to handle and the tiny peas unimpressive. It's just not amazing making a tiny pea disappear. Except the shell game where it is trapped under a shell...but as said before these cups will not work well for that. Well after some toying around I replaced the plastic peas with pachinko balls, 1/2" steel balls. This allowed me to have a more visible ball and use the chop too. Since noise is now a factor I reviewed Paul Gertner's Steel and Silver and used some of his ploys to work out a short routine. But the chop was a little too strong with the raw steel so I covered the balls with a monkey knot of yellow string. Now they are better with the chop, and contrast the 1" red knit balls finale.

After all that I got the GA-Golf Guild set also, and use three colored golf balls, and made leather fist balls with the steel core which are bigger, but perfect for the new cups and heaver than small cork balls. I'll have to get a PK ring.
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Ragman
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I have to say that I like these tiny cups. I use them hopping as well, I have crossed a few moves from the shell game and the cups and balls to make a very nice routine.
It is advisable to think outside the box with this little set, perhaps coming up with a climax which is different than a final load is in order. That is what I have done and it fits me a bit better and makes it instantly repeatable. It is a take off on a routine that I found in an E-book called the "HanXamean Approach to the three shell game".
Bill Palmer
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At some point, you have to figure out whether you are going to do a magic routine or a gambling routine. If you are going to do a gambling routine a la thimblerig, then don't do a magic routine, and vice versa.
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Ragman
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Quote:
On 2007-03-30 13:06, Bill Palmer wrote:
At some point, you have to figure out whether you are going to do a magic routine or a gambling routine. If you are going to do a gambling routine a la thimblerig, then don't do a magic routine, and vice versa.



I guess I am at a loss here, why should you not cross the two? I know this probably has a thread elsewhere for all the reasons why not to make your shell game a magic routine. I have found that they compliment each other very well.
Using the standard thimble rig idea then following with a magical sequence is nice, a laymen thinks that both require slieght of hand skills no matter how good of routine you use. By all means I can value another mans oppinion but in this case if you could just expand your thought a little perhaps I could see the greater wisdom in it.
flimnar
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Have you seen the new mini cups from Jim Riser? They are a thing of beauty! They represent a whole new approach to the way cups look. Very classy.

See them at http://www.jamesriser.com/Magic/JamesRiserMagic.html

Flimnar
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Dave V
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Yes! I have a set already. Definitely not your typical set. They look almost like custom 18 wheeler lug nut covers. I bought these for use as a "chop cup" with the help of my PK ring. The golf balls kept getting stuck in my Animal Golf cups so I wanted to try something different.
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