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walid ahumada Special user sinaloa, mexico 892 Posts |
Nice topic,same old argument......i'm loving it
“Magic becomes art when it has nothing to hide.” BEN OKRI quote
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Mad Jake Inner circle All the voices in my head helped me make 2202 Posts |
Another MM customer heard from. Nice topic, not the same arguement however.
First, what Gazzo told me was "Those cups will work for his routine." Nothing else was said, implied or assumed from that statement by myself. A lot was twisted from that though by others, but given the circumstances it doesn't suprise me at all. I can use a fan belt from my 68 Nova SS to replace the one on my wood lathe, "Yes that Gates fan belt will work with my lathe." I'm not saying that it is the answer to solve a problem, or it's better than the replacement of an actual belt or I'm endorsing it, it will simply work. The other matter is the self proclaimed new user "The Great Dave" comes onto the Café and starts berating products, supporting MM and calling our products a Con? No I don't think so. I've had to defend this company for too long now to let this new little wretch come talk smack in the forums, about us our products or anything else for that matter. He clearly has no idea, not even an glimpse of what it takes to make what we do, not only the labor but the cost. It seems a lot of people think we are living in big homes, driving a different car each day of the week and eat at a country club all the time. Heh, boy that would be nice, while this may be true of some people who are taking the works of others sending them off and having them ripped from scrap metal and flooding the market with thier crap, we maintain a high standard which assures that it will live a full life with the performer and then some. Dave, in one thread, the same one you bashed us in that was removed, you said you could build the same street table as a vendor is selling for $45.00, I hate burst your bubble, but you can't even get the stand for that amount, some glue and some felt LOL, oh if it was only that simple. First off you don't use pine plywood, you would have to use birch, not many places sell 1/2 sheets anymore, so there you go, that 75.00 a sheet, the crafter does NOT use Hancock's green felt. Have you ever priced table felt for a pool table or craps table? Then their is the hardwood trim, I have my trim in Snakewood, 350.00 a bf, you could go cheaper with a different hardwood, but some of us are proud of our exotic props. You made the remark of simply gluing the felt to the board, LOL, that can end up being the most time consuming part of the whole project. Then add in all the time put in to make the product? You don't give any consideration to the time put into the pieces made out there that carry high price tags. Our time is valuable, this is our trade, not our "Con". I'm guessing you are person that was passed up a lot for promotions, so you punish others by berating their skills in public. The whole "Mine is bigger than yours syndrome". As to companys saying "Send it back" Bill is right on, about 1% actually have the time to send it back or even the will to do so. Ask our customers about our policy, better yet DAVE ask our customers how we handled a problem with the release of a wrong cup in stainless steel! This is a far cry from being a Con company.
Licensed Steve Dusheck Manufacturer and distributor visit www.airshipmagic.com
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RiserMagic Veteran user 361 Posts |
Bill;
My train was an American Flyer. I actually liked it better than the more popular Lionel due to the 3 rails on the Lionel (AF has a more realistic looking two rail track). I've still got the American Flyer and it gets worth more every day. FWIW - A Marx will run on a Lionel track but it's still not a Lionel. Jim |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24314 Posts |
The AF was a much more realistic train. And original Lionel equipment, if it is in the original boxes, is worth a lot of money. I suppose original Marx equipment would be too, if it were in operating condition. But that's a big "IF." So little of the Marx stuff would last past the first week.
Kind of reminds me of Al Capp's remark about his sports car. He said "I bought an English sports car. Everything that fell off of it was of the finest British workmanship." I'm not a machinist. I'm not a metal spinner. My work in metal is very limited. But I know a lot about how it is done, because I have seen it done by masters. It is possible to automate the process of making CNC cups. It's also possible to automate making spun cups, but most of the time nobody would want the product. Let's consider a run of Riser Jumbo Cups. Jim may make a dozen sets at a time. Jim's made a lot of cups, so his number of misfires will be fairly low, if ther are any at all. Each cup will go through six different stages, each followed by an annealing session. Then they will be hand ground and hand polished. And each cup is inspected at each step along the way. After that, the cups are ready. The automated producers will have very little quality control. The initial setup cost for a run will be fairly great, but each run will be something like 10,000 cups. If the setup cost is $10,000, and the labor cost per cup for that long run is about $1.00, then all you have in a set of cups is $2.00 plus the cost of the materials. There's a lot more personal labor in a set of cups that come out of an American hand manufacturing company. Even CNC products require some hand work. The micro MM cups would cost you about 3 times what they do now if they were polished. I can vouch for Jake's willingness to make things right. I got one of those early PF stainless sets that had some really odd problems. He sent a replacement set without asking for a return of the others. You could have knocked me over with a feather. Building tables is something I do know about. My trestle table may not look like much. It's not supposed to. But you can't even get the parts to build it for less than $75.00, IF YOU CAN FIND THEM!!!!
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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RiserMagic Veteran user 361 Posts |
Bill;
In addition to many hidden costs, you might want to factor in the cost of the CNC spinning lathe (let's just go bottom of the line at around $150,000). Right there you know that magic would never pay for the machine let alone make a "profit" on cups. The way to pay for such a machine is to forget about magic and spin jet engine parts, rocket parts, air intake covers for hot rods, and even motorcycle headlamp reflectors. Making magic items would be a waste of machine time. No one gets rich MAKING magic. Only a fool thinks quality items can be made cheaply. There are so many "hidden costs" beyond the price of expensive materials that only those who "do" know about. The fact is simply that most magicians are cheap and totally ignorant of what is quality - not to mention understanding how such items are manufactured or problems in the supply chain. The sad part of it is that they do not even care. They will go through their whole lives buying and replacing crap and never know the difference. It is impossible to convince them otherwise. They are happy in their ignorance surrounded by nonfunctioning, worn out, broken crap. That's what these fools deserve. That's what they demand and all they are willing to pay for. They should be pleased with themselves. It is such fools who actually drive the magic marketplace. Fortunately there are those who know and want the better professional grade of items - and realize that such goodies come dearly. Jim |
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walid ahumada Special user sinaloa, mexico 892 Posts |
Jake, if "the great dave" call you con man, he owe you an apology, but it does not mean all MM "customers" think the same way, I belive you make a very nice cups, I just can't afford them (yet)
“Magic becomes art when it has nothing to hide.” BEN OKRI quote
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Acecardician Inner circle New Orleans 1390 Posts |
Does any know what happened to the Great Dave who posted above?
I tried to pm him, but he is blocked? ACE
My Chinese Stick Collection: https://app.photobucket.com/u/ChineseSticks?sort=6
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Acecardician Inner circle New Orleans 1390 Posts |
I was joking about the paper cups earlier, ya'll are absolutely correctin getting the best tools for your trade. It's cheaper in the long run than having to replace them all the time. For effects that are my spoecialty, I get the best.
ACE
My Chinese Stick Collection: https://app.photobucket.com/u/ChineseSticks?sort=6
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Acecardician Inner circle New Orleans 1390 Posts |
I meant specialty.
My Chinese Stick Collection: https://app.photobucket.com/u/ChineseSticks?sort=6
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24314 Posts |
Jim:
I had the privilege and pleasure of visiting Auke van Dokkum's machine shop last year before I went to London for the Magic Circle Centenary. I got an instant immersion course in what it takes to do the work. You are absolutely right about the costs involved. If it were not for the other work Auke does, he would not be making cups and coin gaffs. By that same token, I have also had the privilege of spending significant amounts of time inside several places that make musical instruments. A friend of mine does the rough out work for Gibson banjo necks. He cuts them out, does all the inlay and gets them ready for the factory to finish them. Another friend of mine owns a banjo company. I've watched his machines do inlay work. Even though it is done by a computer, everything has to be adjusted correctly or nothing works. Just a two-dimensional CNC table for doing inlay work is quite expensive. And they don't give the software away for free, either! But, in a pinch, either of these fellows is completely capable of doing hand inlay work. The machine makes it easier, but it doesn't make it artistic.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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RiserMagic Veteran user 361 Posts |
Bill;
That's right. It does not matter what is being manufactured. There are difficulties and expenses common to all manufacturing no matter what the end product. It takes an artistic person to design the original inlay work for a finger board. The machine merely makes duplicates of the original to keep costs down and still maintain quality. I like machinery and to turn the cranks actually feeling the work being done. It is an extremely tactile experience. The CNC process removes this oneness with the material and machine sensation. My CNC lathe sits unused at the end of my shop. It just does not have "heart". Unfortunately, the old dinosaurs like me who can do the job entirely by hand are dieing off. Many of the "makers" of items coming up do not know the difference between a hammer and a screw driver. They are all computer and can not make anything with their hands. There will come a time when the only people who can make things in the US will be the hobby type guys who just wanted to learn how to do a process. Jim |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24314 Posts |
One thing the hobbyists don't understand is that with enough practice, anyone can make one cup, or even a set of cups. Making 75 cups that look like they belong together is much more difficult.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-12-15 18:39, Acecardician wrote: I'm not sure but it appears that he has been Banned, as probably requested by several other memebers. ... myself included. He was making enemies very quickly and enjoying every minute of it. A true troll. Upon inspection, most of his 50 posts were in the buying/selling area. He liked some of the nice props as long as he could get them dirt cheap. If not, he'd turn around and bash them as being overpriced rip-offs from con artists.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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Mad Jake Inner circle All the voices in my head helped me make 2202 Posts |
I really love it when Steve flexes "The Button"
Licensed Steve Dusheck Manufacturer and distributor visit www.airshipmagic.com
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24314 Posts |
Yes, the "Grate" Dave did have a way of getting up one's nostril.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-12-15 20:50, Mad Jake wrote: I did too until....
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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Acecardician Inner circle New Orleans 1390 Posts |
Frank: thanks for the heads up. He was looking to buy something I might sell, but now I will be carefull. I will not worry with it anymore, he is gone.
I'll admit I'm no expert on cups. Any review of the new Michael Ammar cups? How do they compare to others? thanks again ACE
My Chinese Stick Collection: https://app.photobucket.com/u/ChineseSticks?sort=6
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Acecardician Inner circle New Orleans 1390 Posts |
Does any know anything about these cups?: they are $99 and claim to be copper, are they the same MM cups mentioned above?
http://magic4less.com/Merchant5/merchant......tSellers
My Chinese Stick Collection: https://app.photobucket.com/u/ChineseSticks?sort=6
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24314 Posts |
Yep! Those are the large MM cups.
There is a smaller set that is an attempt to imitate a Paul Fox cup. There have been a couple of posts/reviews of the Ammar cups. Be sure to read all three threads, so you can see how my opinion changed from my initial impression. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......orum=109 http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......orum=115 http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......orum=195
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-12-16 00:43, Acecardician wrote: As far as the Ammar cups go, I think the design was not great. It was designed around the fake fruit, apparently. Not a good idea in my opinon. They should either be taller to take a bigger load or narrower so a round load would fill the cup. the cups I got all stuck together so I returned them. The saddle was flatter than I like. They are not pretty cups either. I prefer the phoenix cups to the Ammar cups.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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