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CardShark2004 Regular user 153 Posts |
I have his Cheat dvd, but was wondering if anyone has or has seen his "Best of the Bottoms" and "Fans Flourishes and False shuffles"? And if so are they good?
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Mr. Z Special user 818 Posts |
I've heard they're not very good, no disrespect to Richard...
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
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papermechanic Regular user 121 Posts |
He shows a lot of nice variations on the bottom deal and his method for doing it. you just have to watch carefully and put in a lot of practice to try and mimic his moves.
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
I do agree with Mr. Z. Again, no disrespect to Mr. Turner. I might add, I have viewed the former of the two. In my opinion, one might be wise and choose to spend their money elsewhere.
Loubard |
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EMVT New user 52 Posts |
In my opinion they are truly wondeful dvd's but again this is just my personal opinion, beautiful moves taught by a good card man and don't forget guys he's legally blind so for what he shows with that amount of precision and skill is amazing to me the least. Now I haven't seen Mr. Turner in person so I can't critisize on his deals and flourishes but from the tapes that I've seen and his dealing he is by far the smoothest I've seen very light and elegant I am a big fan of his again just my opinion guys.
So to answer your question as to whether these dvd's are good, the answer is "YES" depending on what you want to learn there are some good flourishes on the flourish tape and a great dvd on the bottom deal good luck finding what you're looking for. EMVT |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
“A world class cardman and technician supreme. Richard Turner is the real deal! As one of finest card technicians on the planet, Richard Turner advances the science of card manipulation to heights never dreamed of.”
-Steve Forte. December 12. 2005- “This guy Richard Turner can do stuff with deck of cards that no one else in the word can do, no one!” -Dai Vernon- Personally I think Richard Turner is one best, the very best. 240 minutes of Turner for $45 ain’t bad value if you ask me, Especially if it’s stuff related to the card table. Forte should know what he is talking about and moreover I think Forte in particular always gives an honest opinion. Any way I sent for them and I will let know what I think of them when I seen them. Going on The Cheat DVD and being hyper critical I would say that Richard is not easiest guy to learn from, a bit like Forte in that regard. Turners under table view is a cool thing for learning though. I very would be very happy to be able to deal and handle a deck as well as Turner.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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brokin6 Loyal user Chicago 276 Posts |
The discs are worth every penny if you put in the work to get the results. 1-2 hours a day for months is not unusual for a good bottom deal. You need to pay attention because he does not spoon feed you but if you have the discipline then buy these dvd's. If not then it's o.k. because these moves are really a bear to get down. Put it this way, if you NEED a bottom then this is the material for you.
Why does coin magic make my head hurt!?!
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
Gentlemen
I too feel Mr. Turner is one of the best. However, I am not giving an opinion on his skill as a whole. I am merely writing in regards to his bottom deal. Simply put, I have seen bottom deals far superior to his. I stated elsewhere that his bottom-deal could, in fact, could "get the money," so long as he wasn't in the presence of fast company. What do I mean by fast company? Let me relay my experience when I first saw him in person. Three things I noticed right away without being told what he does. I noticed he plays the blister, N-strippers, both very good I might add, and finally the most glaring one was his bottom deal. His work is top notch. He played the blister well, but to me was very noticeable. his handling of n-strippers was also very noticeable, again top notch smooth, elegant handling. However, the bottom was weak in my opinion. It's not that it's a bad bottom, but with simple wrist alterations could be a good bottom, if you like push-out bottoms. I have a friend in New York who told me once, "If I don't tell you the truth about your skill, what kind of friend would I be." what he was getting at was that he could possibly be saving my life without me realizing it. For magicicans that statement may be meaningless, but for hustlers that's one of the best gifts a friend can give. I would, however, like to add, if anyone takes away one thing (learns) from these or any other dvds or books, in my opinion, it was money well spent. C. Loubard |
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
Sir Tommy,
Vernon did indeed say that about Mr. Turner. However, if you would indulge me for a second, it is impossible for Vernon to have met every card man in the world. therefore it is equally impossible for Vernon to be qualified to speak on behalf of their skill. If I recall correctly, Vernon never had a chance to sit with Mr. Forte, they only briefly talked at one point. As you know many people hold Mr. Forte on the same pedestal they do Mr. Turner. I would ask then, which one in your opinion is better? I personally wouldn't say as a whole Mr. Turner is better than Mr. Forte. Each one of them has his strengths and weaknesses. If I want to learn cold deck moves, I assure you I will not go to either one. Not that they are not good, but in my opinion they are not the best. Sir Tommy one more question please. Knowing that I can spot Mr. Turner's punch work, n-stripper work and bottom deal, would you allow him to work as a dealer in your card room, if you were looking to clip your clients without getting caught? C. Loubard |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
While Vernon can’t have seen every cardguy in the world he still seen a few and was not a bad judge.
If it came to cheating I would give Forte a better chance than Turner, as Forte is not a magician but the worlds leading game protection expert and knows more about the subject than Turner. Skill is a grossly over rated asset when it comes to cheating or doing magic for that matter. Both Forte and Turner are top class manipulators none the less. As Forte says it’s about the application. My clients are high stakes poker players and most just businessmen , not magicians or cardsharps. But they are not babies. They know the procedure of a formal game and not much more. So if Turner knows about applying something to this particular game he is welcome anytime. Just because a guy is a great manipulator does not necessarily mean he knows what, when and where to apply it. He may never have been in a formal poker game for all I know. I know this: People say they can spot this or that, and maybe they can, when they know this or that is being used, but we have used this and that, and no one has spotted it yet. We are not as good as Mr Tuner. The bottom line is we know our capabilities and our game and therefore know what will get away with. Personally if I was Turner and Forte rolled into one I still would not work alone. I think you have to have a crew for high stakes poker games. Sir Tommy! Where did you get that from? Once a knight is enough.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
Yes, Vernon had been in the presence of many great card men, making him a fairly good judge of "their" ability compared to that of Mr. Turner.
I am glad to see you say you would choose Mr. Forte over Mr. Turner. In your previous post, you wrote "Richard Turner is the very best." I wasn't sure whether I should interpret that literally or not. I agree it is about the application. however, I don't feel the skill needed is grossly over rated. For any long term success, one must be good at what they do. Look at Mr. Turner and Mr. Forte, do you think they are as successful as they are because of application and mediocre skill, or because of application and exceptional skill? Quote:
I know this: People say they can spot this or that, and maybe they can, when they know this or that is being used, but we have used this and that, and no one has spotted it yet. I am pleased to read that. Perhaps you will never be caught. Of course, you can't be confident it'll never happen... In all likelihood you have been using more subtle forms of chicanery than those employed by a mechanic. If I am wrong, I apologize for being presumptuous. Quote:
I think you have to have a crew for high stakes poker games. what may be high stakes to you or me, may not be to everyone else playing. A home poker game with athletes and celebraties, where 40,000 to 100,000 dollar pots is not uncommon and may not be considered high stakes by those playing. However, 50 dollars might be considered high stakes for a person with no money and is looking for a way to feed his family. One needs to assess the situation and determine whether it is worth their own personal risk. Above all, listen to that little voice in your head. How many times have you ignored it only to wind up in a mess? Sir Tommy was just me going out on a limb based on where you are from and the way in which some of your posts are written... Was I right? If not, I am sorry. however, based on your last sentence I am assuming at one time you were, in which case, I was half right. C. Loubard |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
Quote:
I have a friend in New York who told me once, "If I don't tell you the truth about your skill, what kind of friend would I be." what he was getting at was that he could possibly be saving my life without me realizing it. Now this sounds exactly like what I would say to someone. Quote:
I would, however, like to add, if anyone takes away one thing (learns) from these or any other dvds or books, in my opinion, it was money well spent. I definitely agree. Quote:
Gentlemen C. Loubard to me you sound like an expert but what I don't understand about your above text and please clarify it for me if you can, how in the world can you see N-Strippers? I mean no disrespect but what kind of vision do you possess to be able to see N-Strippers from a distance (meaning at least 1/64th of an inch/a thin piece of hair)? I have friends that use cut cards and know nothing about N-Strippers and I along with other card cheats can't tell (meaning it's not visual even upon looking at it up close) cut cards unless we examine or pull the deck. 99.9% card cheats in the world no nothing about N-Strippers and if they do they can't see them and definitely can't pull them. This technique is used to cheat cheats who use Belly Strippers. As a matter of fact out of all the gambling/cheating books that I have, ONLY RADNER speaks of this technique besides Dai Vernon and he calls them Bathroom Strippers; and in this instance I don't think he knows what he's talking about thinking that it was belly strippers that was made in a hurry. The name N-Strippers are getting a lot of publicity from magicians when in all actuality the people are talking about belly strippers; could this be what you are talking about? Please correct me if I'm wrong. The 1st and 2nd picture shows how an N-Stripper deck look up close. Notice that there is nothing that you can see that's different from a normal looking deck. The 3rd picture shows me pulling the wanted card from this deck. Note: To See Belly Strippers see Steve's GPS section on Strippers. http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/c_N_c/photos/browse/cafd Again, how after looking at an (my) N-Stripper deck can you tell from a distance or even up close that there is anything wrong with it? I await your reply. Note: For the record when I was up in Boston hustling I went to the Magic Store up there and not only did I make N-strippers in front of the staff and pulled them, after showing them what to do they still couldn’t see nor pull the cut cards. Respectfully, The Doctor |
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
Good Morning DOC!
you're right N-strippers are undetectable. Even upon close examination there is nothing to see or feel... I would not argue that with anyone. In the memorable writing style of DOC I write, how is it then Loubard that you know Richard Turner used N-strippers? The answer is not in the cards. The answer is in the person handling the cards. Mr. Turner has a particular style that adds grace and delicacy to the way he handles the cards. It is that same grace and delicacy that gives him away. His slow deliberate style allows one to see certain things that would otherwise be invisible. I would like to add, I have been fooled by n-strippers very badly. Of course the person showing me was good and isn't a magician C. Loubard |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-10-25 12:57, C. Loubard wrote: Mr. Loubard thank you for writing back but there are still some unanswered questions that remain in which I asked that you didn't answer. How do you know that it was N-Strippers, you couldn't have seen this from a distance? Why I ask? I ask because unless at this demonstration of Mr. Turner he let you examine this deck personally there is no way you can say that it was Belly or N-Strippers that he was using. To be fooled by a deck of N-Strippers is one thing but even once fooled and shown you cannot just out of no where learn this technique just like that and see from any distance that a person is using this exact technique. My two witnesses here at this site is Alan Halcon and ExpertMagician, not only did I do this technique on them I also showed them what it was and taught them and upon teaching them they still had a very very hard time pulling the cards. Can you please in one sentence explain the difference between N and Belly Strippers so I can base my conclusion on this matter. Readers: I mean no disrespect here by asking this question to C. Loubard but this is what I was talking about in prior post of how I was deceived by magicians when reading their books etc. I'm not saying that Mr. Loubard is not an expert but is he a player? A person who has studied this or has been shown this and a person who plays this are totally different, trust me I know. He sounds like he knows what he's talking about but I see kinks in his statement that a player would know so this is why I'm asking these questions. A person who has been taught this technique and never played would speak the way Loubard is speaking but could not detect Mr. Turner using N-Strippers at a table especially from an audience seating position. An expert player knows that there is no difference between the handling of belly strippers than a person using N-Strippers, both are exactly the same with a degree of difference and besides that, both decks when cut basically looks the same in smoothness but upon pulling the cards there is difference of which I will not speak of that the Belly stripper cheat is not aware of and this is how he's cheated in the interim. Respectfully, The Doctor |
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
Doc,
No disrespect taken. In fact, I welcome the comments. First I would like to thankyou for the kind words about being an expert. However, I consider myself a student always willing to learn. In fact, I have been on the receiving end of getting scammed for a lot of money, so therefore hardly consider myself an expert. It is my hope, so long as I continue to think this way, I will always be open to learning new things. Gentlemen, greed is a powereful emotion. Never let it get out of control. I would like to point out, the answer to your question is in your post Doc. It was also substantiated by Mr. Turner in a private conversation. there is, however, the distinct possibility I was suckered by Mr. Turner in the conversation, but I couldn't tell you. I can tell you, however, I was taught by, who in my honest opinion, is one of the best. gentlemen if you'll excuse me, I was working on a project and I have to put the sandpaper away. C. Loubard |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
By reading your post I can understand how you came to your conclusion and got your answer and I definitely understand the hint regarding the sandpaper but as a maker and player of it, you still did not answer my question. You only hinted at what is used in the making of both and the answer to this question IS NOT in what I previously wrote. It is my opinion that you are eloquently evading my question and since my readers don't know what the hell is going on here and neither do they know the answer you look like to them that you've answered the question when in all actuality you haven't.
Readers: One of my mentors and teacher (Darwin Ortiz) knows of this ruse because I was one of the two who was explaining and teaching it to him, but being that he's not a gambler or cheat, there is no way he could explain certain things about this technique and it's understandable to me because he's not a gambler. This is my dilemma with Mr. Loubard, not that he's not an expert (like Ortiz) but that he never played this in a game and since not his statement that he saw Mr. Turner using N-Strippers was unsubstantiated and is not reliable. Why ask Mr. Turner if he was using something if you were able to see this from the start? because you didn’t know what he was doing, therefore using a process of elimination while fishing for information you were trying to subliminally let him know that you knew what you were talking about speaking of N-Strippers. (If I’m wrong in this evaluation it won’t be the first nor last time). A lot of well informed magicians seek answers from expert card cheats and even though they may possess a skill, just by conversation alone can be seen a mile away if he ever played or not and this is when our red flag goes up and from this point on we give out sucker information. I think I spoke about this in a previous post when Allan Ackerman was hanging around us cheats. Even though he is an excellent card manipulator and an excellent guy with a very pleasant personality and good heart, we recognized when he made a statement regarding something we knew immediately that he said that because he was not a player. Note: We had no problem with his statement because we all knew that he wasn't a card cheat and never applied certain things in actual play but Loubard you made a statement about seeing Mr. Turner using N-Strippers a technique that cannot be seen. Clarification: Yes it is possible to see a guy using strippers and not doing as well as he could be but it is physically impossible to see 1/64th of an inch cut off of some cards at any distance to determine that a individual is using a stripper deck let along N-Strippers, hence my question. Quote:
... explain the difference between N and Belly Strippers so I can base my conclusion on this matter. Respectfully, Doc |
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
Doc,
I am not trying to elude your question. I did answer you, more than you think. I never said I was an expert with n-strippers, nor that I play them. If I led anyone to believe that I apologize. It was not my intention to give the illusion that I did. I did however, show my friend something he claims is the best he had ever seen. Upon my friend seeing this certain something, he taught me about n-strippers and certain nuances that evade even some of the best cardmen around. He felt, and I agree, that if I combine both ruses I would indeed have a pretty powerful weapon. My only regret, I was in town on business, not pleasure, and wasn't able to spend more time with him. I still have fond memories of the club/bar he took me to. The one with the lovely ladies... there is something about black women that drives me crazy. C. Loubard |
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
Quote:
Yes it is possible to see a guy using strippers and not doing as well as he could be but it is physically impossible to see 1/64th of an inch cut off of some cards at any distance to determine that a individual is using a stripper deck let along N-Strippers, hence my question. I apologize Doc. I hastly posted a reply without responding to your question. I did however write, a few posts back up, Quote:
you're right N-strippers are undetectable. Even upon close examination there is nothing to see or feel... I would not argue that with anyone. In response to your question between Belly strippers and n-strippers I will not answer you directly on this public forum. Instead, I will pm you. It is not that I feel anyone will be able to ascertain the technique required to use this style of strippers. In fact, even if they did, they would still have a hard time doing the work regardless of knowing the technique. I feel that if someone truly wants to learn they should truly go on the journey for knowledge. They same way you, I, and many others did and continue to do. Suffice it to say, N-strippers do not use both convex and concave cut cards C. Loubard |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
Quote:
N-strippers do not use both convex and concave cut cards The above answer is technically not true, but it's also not a no answer. Why? It depends on his level of expertise. He PM me with his answer as he said and even though it wasn't the right answer to the N-Stripper deck he honestly knows about strippers. From this day forth he now knows what N-Stripper are. Respectfully, Doc |
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
To Doc and to everyone else here who felt I misrepresented what I wrote, I apologize.
perhaps after Doc reads the last pm he will have a clearer understanding of what it is I wrote. I felt I clearly described the difference, but it seems I did not know how to correctly put it into words, so much so, that I can now see how the statement that Doc quoted me on could be misread. again my apologies C. Loubard |
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