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stevenamills
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I must admit a 30 year phobia when using a [. I had just gotten a Johnson Kennedy Silver Expanded [ and worked on a few routines. The FIRST time I started to show one I barely had the coins out of my pocket and someone said "that one looks fat" (the coin, not me!)

On his new DVDs, John Mendoza talks about expanded versus cut-down and concludes the latter is preferable. His Translocation routine is structured so only a single pair is used and there is very little time for the audience to see the difference. I would much prefer to use a matching 4 coin set, but can't decide which type. I'm going to silver dollars, so I would think the discrepancy would be less noticeable than on halves.

I would appreciate any thoughts.

sam

PS I saw Simon Lovell's lecture the other night and he pointed out the Alex Elmsley had no tricks where he used the Ghost count with the cards face up. He went on to add that the "no one notices when you show the same suit twice" was a total fallacy and should be "Everyone notices....." I firmly believe the much ridiculed layman sees MUCH more than we give them credit for.
Jaz
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NJ, U.S.
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The person that saw the fat coin either had excellent eyesight or the gaff was a cheaper one.
My first ] was a cheap one and I never even tried it because it was obvious.

Johnson has been my ] of choice and I've never had any problems with the half or quarter ]s. This may be because I keep basically keep things in motion both with patter and the coins themselves but they are good.

If you need a matching set I would look at the Schoolcraft and Lassen. If I could afford it I would prefer the expanded set because the ] can be used with C/S, Flippers and others.
rutabaga
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Toronto, Canada
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Unexpanded can also be used with C/S, Flippers and others if they're cut to match...
tbaer
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Pennsylvania
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Even a good made expanded shell, (I have Lassens Kennedy half) when placed side by side with the other coins, you can see a difference in size and a slight distortion of Kennedy's head. But you would only notice this when placing the other coins side by side. Having said that, when I do a routine, I never have the coins side by side and keep the coins moving as I'm sure everyone else does also.

With the unexpanded shell with the other coins re-milled, there would not be a slight distortion of Kennedy's head. So I'm assuming the coins would look better when placed side by side.

I was actually thinking of going this route with the unexpanded shell. For anyone who has the unexpanded shell set, do you prefer this over the expanded set? And do the coins look better side by side?
Joshua Barrett
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Cincinnati, Ohio
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Well, that's interesting. I have never had anyone call me out on a shell expanded or or un-expanded. ok, to answer your question. my un-expanded walking liberties seem to have a bigger size difference then my, expanded african dimes. but the un-expanded covers more coin. no spec as ever noticed this.
Charles Adams
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Silver Spring, MD
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Does it really come down to flexibility vs. realism? A cut down shell has no distortion and is not "fatter", however it can only be used with other cut down "inserts" or coins. The expanded shell is slightly less real looking but can fit over a variety of unprepared coins.
CoinMan21
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China
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I am not from the States so introducing foreign coins is already a novelty to me. Furthermore regardless of unexpanded or expanded ]s, it's equally difficult to obtain matching coins in my country. That said, I prefer using an unexpanded set because of the better fit which allows me to flash both sides of a coin with more confidence. This probably is magician's guilt but if it helps in your performance, I say go ahead with the unexpanded.

The distortion of an unexpanded set is really mimimal and the sharp edges of soft coins are great for certain sleights. Some might argue that these sharp and remilled edges look awkard on soft coins. For me, most of my audience has not even seen US coins and really no one is really going to examine your props to the finest details.

I even had my flipper and C/S remilled to fit the ] for the additional possibilities.
boxjumper
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My Morgan exp sh--- which Todd made is beautiful and very decetive.
Mike Wild
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I have several e]sets and unexpanded ] sets. Some are Johnson (Ultimate C&S, Walking Lib e]), some are Todd's (walking Lib e] set with matching "normal" coins, Morgan e] set, and a few other goodies that I refuse to discuss Smile ) My take on this subject is simple... each type of ] or ] set has its own uses, strengths and weaknesses. Use the right tool for the job.

There are a few things to consider when using any shell type (or really any gaffed coins or gimmicks):

1. Don't draw attention to it/them by saying things like, "Here's an ordinary coin..." or similarly useless and attention-drawing statements.

2. Keep the shells in play but don't treat them any differently than you treat(handle) the regular coins. Don't move them around faster than you move anything else, it doesn't hide the fact that you're using a shell, it telegraphs it across the room.

3. Don't let them talk (unless they're of very good to excellent quality - my Lassen shells sound pretty good when other coins bounce off of them).

4. Always have a "ditch" strategy in mind when constructing routines that use gimmicks. For example, in my routine "Amalgamated Steal" I simply palm off both shells that are in play as I hand the coins out to be examined (or just put them down on the mat. Not every coin in every routine needs to be examined in a spectator's hand in order to prove that they're real). A good ditch at the right time serves to take away the "he's using a trick coin" mentality that some spectators have.

There are other "best practices" for shell handling, the four above are pretty much just bread-n-butter and par for the course... or whatever other over-used cliches you can think of Smile

Best,

Mike
<><>< SunDragon Magic ><><>

"Question Reality... Create Illusion"
Dougini
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The Beautiful State Of Maine
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Excellent points, Mike (how are ya, by the way?)!

I use a Quarter, Kennedy Half, and a new Eisenhower expanded, all by Johnson.

Not once have I ever been called on them. The thing I find, is, the ['s are best viewed from above...now that I think about it...they don't look so good edge-on, however, I never show the edges...

The Coins Across and Coins Thru The Table routines move briskly through their phases and are not still long enough to really notice differences in size.

My Eisenhower cost me $52, and is one of the BEST I've ever seen...sitting on the table, looking from above, it's hard to tell which is the gaff!

One day, I'd like to be able to buy the more $$$$ sets (Schoolcraft/Lassen).

Best,

Doug
Mike Wild
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I'm super-duper Doug, how's everything with you? How's the weather in FLA? I just Left Naples last month and landed in NC... I forgot that thermometers went below 65 degrees Smile brrrrrrrrr.

Btw, thanks! You just reminded me that I need to order a new quarter shell... mine got "smushed" Smile

Best,

Mike
<><>< SunDragon Magic ><><>

"Question Reality... Create Illusion"
Fingers
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Pennsylvania, USA
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Thanks Mike Wild, I don't know about anyone else, but your points help me a lot! Those points might be basic to you, but they are great rules for us newbies.....
Where I go, so do my coins.....
plungerman
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Am I the only one who flinched when this thread opened? Simon Lovell, or anyone else says that Elmsley did not use the Ghost count face up? I must have read that wrong. Collinspell is very face up for one example.

Back to the thread. In Unexplainable Acts it is pointed out that you can drop a coin onto the inside side of the gimmick (with another coind under that) and it will sound legit. Nice to know at that point in the routine. Of course there is no other comfort at that point in the routine because it is impossible!!!
Charles Adams
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Silver Spring, MD
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Mike,

Where do you get your quarter shells. I don't see any on the Lassen site.
David Neighbors
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Hi Gang,
That's One reason I like useing old coins! ( I use barbar's Myself!) Not many people know what thay look like! And I know Todd will make quarter shells You will just have to Ask him!
David Neighbors
the coinjurer
www.daveneighbors.com
emyers99
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Columbus, Ohio
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Anyone talked with Jamie Schoolcraft lately? I ordered a shell set and flipper a little over three weeks ago and emailed him to check on the status of my order but haven't heard back.
Jaz
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ShawnB
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Quote:
On 2006-10-27 15:07, emyers99 wrote:
Anyone talked with Jamie Schoolcraft lately? I ordered a shell set and flipper a little over three weeks ago and emailed him to check on the status of my order but haven't heard back.


You are better off calling him.

Shawn.
Shawn.
Dougini
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The Beautiful State Of Maine
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Thanks for that link, Jaz!

Mike, the weather in Florida is very nice...cooling off a bit...overnight lows in the upper 60's, daytime highs in the 80's...in fact, the radio station I work at (I'm on the air right now...my shift is 7pm - midnight), is a mile or two North of Naples...

Hey we just got a new Magic Shop in Bonita Springs, at Flamingo Island Flea Market. A former fellow DJ (B.J. Odem) opened it up last month...has a few standard items...I'm just glad to see that. Southwest Florida is "jones-ing" for a magic shop, since Don closed shop on Ft Myers Beach.

Back to topic, if you get a quarter shell, make sure it is "tails", that way, you won't have to pay attention to the year when assembling. I'm curious, though Mike...how the heck did ya crush your quarter shell? That musta bummed ya out, eh?

$27 bucks ain't bad...good find, Jaz!

Doug
Pete McEwen
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Durham, N.C.
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The tails side is a good idea... but what about with all the new ones coming out? what if they hand you all new coins with states as the back and you have an eagle sitting there?

SPEED
The magician formerly known as SPEEDcuber
"no one will believe the things we do if we don't believe them ourselves." - Slydini
PeteMcEwen@mac.com
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