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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Good News! » » A question. (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Dannydoyle
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Eternal Order
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This may very well ruffle some feathers but as I believe it is one of the questions we wrestle with, and some may not think of I feel it is important to at least ask. Names have been left out on purpose.

As a clarification I don't do "Gospel Magic" or any sort of references to it in my act. Hence the question.

I went to see an "alledged" christian magician. I think it is admirable to try to communicate your faith with your profession. Here was my problem though. When I am listening about religious things and then suddenly I hear lines and see tricks that are from anothers act. Actually to tell the truth some from MY act. Many things from friends of mine and thier working show. NO permission granted to use such things, heck none even asked for.

We call this theft. Plain and simple. It happens on a grand scale throughout the magic community and generally it does not get to me so badly. BUT when I am at an allegded "Christian" show, why the theft? I mean I looked it up, there is actually an entire Commandment about it and everything. THOU SHALT NOT STEAL.

Pretty blatant and unambigious if you ask me. Not Thou shalt not steal, unless you cant think of your own stuff. So how seriously do I take him or her as a "Christian" when I am watching stolen things? Plus do I call them on it or leave it alone?

Thanks for the input in advance
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Magic from A to Z
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Just to give you my two cent worth. First, According to Hebrews 10: 8-10 we are no longer bond to the Law of the OT, but by the blood of of Jesus Christ according to the NT. I believe that we can be sincere in our motives and find that we can be sincerely wrong. I believe that God will eventually deal with this individual in His own way.. I don't know what kind of relationship you have with this particular individual/s, so for with little bit of advice I could give, I would pray it rather than say it.
Joe Marotta
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Can You Believe I Have
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Hi Danny,

I certainly see your point... How can you take them seriously as a Christian when they are stealing your lines without your permission? Not to defend this persons actions, because I'm not, but I just want to let you know that Christians are not perfect yet. We still sin and screw up. We are trying to do better and only with God's help can we succeed in becoming more like Christ. It's a process we are all going through, dropping our old sinful habits and acting more like Christ.

Now that being said, here's what I would do if this person were using MY lines from my own act. I would approach this person and inquire with a kind and respectful attitude as to why they are using lines that I personally wrote. I would ask them to create their own patter that fits their personal character and style.

If someone is using your patter and jokes, and it's obvious to others who have seen your act that these are YOUR original lines, then I think there is nothing wrong with approaching the person about it. Presented in the right manner, the person may state that they will stop using your lines and write their own. You may gain the result you were looking for, and gain a friend in the process. I think the worst thing you could do is to NOT approach this person. It's possible that your feelings about it may turn into bitterness and anger, bringing no solution or peace. Just my opinion there.

Magic from A to Z: As far as the Hebrews quote, the context of those verses is that Christ's sacrifice on the cross provides for our permanent sanctification, where as the previous burnt offerings and sacrifices did not. It doesn't say that we are no longer bound to obey the 10 commandments. Jesus himself said in Matthew 5:17 " Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." Maybe this is not what you meant to infer, but that's how it came across to me as I read your post. If I misunderstood you, I apologize.

Thanks for letting me ramble. I now return you to your regularly scheduled Magic Café now in progress....

Joe
Bendy
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Are they performing tricks that YOU designed?
Are they using patter/jokes/dialoge that are uniquely yours?
If the answer to either of those is 'yes,' then you are looking at a violation of the 8th Commandment, (Thou shalt not steal).

Are they simply doing tricks that you do OR are they doing all the same tricks, in the same order and, most importantly, with the same exact patter?

- Let's face it...lots of magicians are doing the same tricks that other magicians have done for years. Similarities do not necessarily mean theft. There's a difference between admiring a performer as a mentoring subject and cloning one's self after another entirely. If they are cloning your act...then I'd agree that it is theft.

- I bought materials to do a trick that I've seen another performer do, (I bought them from his site. It is not a trick for sale, but rather, I bought all the necessary components so as to be able to perform the trick). It's virtually the same trick he does and I chose it because of the strength in its message. Here's the important part: My patter, while somewhat simialr to his structure in some areas so that the message remains strong, is my own. I do not clone his style, his mannerisms or his patter; but I do perform the trick in a similar manner for audiences who otherwise would not see it, (or hear the message contained therein). It's a great illusion and it's a solid message. Is this theft? I submit to you that it is not. And...in similar cases, which is more important; that only one person perform a given trick in a given manner or that the Gospel is shared with those in need of hearing it? Regarding Gospel applications of magic tricks, I believe there may be a higher purpose and a therefore, perhaps a little more breathing room in performing them, (though there is definitely NEVER any excuse for the theft of someone else's material).

Are they performing tricks that are available on the market and using variations of the suggested patter as sold with the trick? If so, then I'm afraid you cannot lay claim to those tricks simply because you're in the same business in the same area.

I don't know the WHOLE story here and would have to see both acts and know the facts on both sides to make any kind of judgement call. I just ask that you consider the points made here. ...That is, IF they even apply at all. I may be WAY out of the ballpark on this one.
Dannydoyle
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Well I can't give both sides only mine unfortunatly. BUT they are tricks readily available. Not a problem. The jokes, the lines and patter and such are uniquely mine or others I know. THAT was the bothersome part.

I don't do a lot of "original" tricks I design. I simply do them as me.

I certainly hope that Magic from A to Z was not telling me to foget the 10 commandments. That would be absurd. It came across that way and I hope I am wrong.


As for sincere in his motives every night he does it he is stealing. Yes as Christians mistakes are possible, heck probable. Humanity is not perfect. I get that. BUT to continually do the wrong? Knowingly? That is where I begin to think there is something wrong,very wrong.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Terry Holley
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How about using a Scriptural principle?

Matthew 18:15 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that `every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Bendy
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I agree with Terry, (and Scripture). Go to him. Bring up that the patter and jokes are similar to your own, (or exactly the same); and let him know that it bothers you that someone else is using your material.
But be prayerful; as that will no doubt be a very difficult thing to bring up without sounding accusatory, arrogant or threatening. ...Especially if he's on the defensive due to guilt. But if he's a Christian, he should be willing to stop using them. Perhaps if he's new to the genre, you could mentor him and help him develop his own patter that is unique and doesn't steal from your own. Getting him to stop is key. Making a friend in the process would be a blessing. Pray about it...then go to him. You may be surprised.
mrtricky
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Much good advice lies just above my post!

I know all too well how it feels to work hard on original material, only to have it show up somewhere else without permission... but with a humble heart and a pursuit of the Biblical principle of Matt. 18, and perhaps a nod to the notion of forgiveness if and where necessary... perhaps healing can be accomplished.

E
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