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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Would a real card cheat really study Erdnase? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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ES Andrews
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You use what works for you in the games you play. Where you get the moves from and the individual handlings are of no importance. Geeeze. Throw the book away, It will be of no use to you.


Vandy, that's what I was trying to get at in my original question. Do you think you should take the best moves from the book and never read it again? The card hustlers on the board seem to think it is a book worth studying.

I apologise if I'm asking stupid questions, I'm just trying to learn from people on this board and I appreciate everyone's input.

Am I overanalyzing?

Posted: Oct 31, 2006 2:22pm
Quote:

On 2006-10-31 14:05, Whit Haydn wrote:
If all you want is the "best" moves to learn to cheat with, you will have to consult an expert.

Whit, that's why I'm asking questions on this forum, I know that there is experts that post here and I trust their opinion.
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The point is, that experts always go to the original sources and try to learn as much as they can from that--to try to discover what others may have missed.

No one today really "knows" Erdnase. We only have the opinions of those who have spent a great deal of time studying him. To become an expert at anything, you need to study the original sources and try to "understand" the work.

An expert doesn't try to learn just the best methods--he learns all the methods.

Otherwise, he won't ever be an expert.

A proficient card cheat doesn't need to be an expert. He only needs to be able to do a few things well.

If you want to be an expert, you need to study Erdnase and many other books.

To be a card cheat, you only need to get someone to show you a few moves that can get the money, and then work only in company that is not very fast--or at least slower than you.

If you want other people to tell you what to spend time on, then you will never be anything like an expert--just a practice monkey.
ES Andrews
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Thanks for the advice Whit, I really appreciate your opinion. I think I maybe overanalyzing things too much.
Vandy Grift
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I'm sorry for the tone of my last post "ES". I know you are just beginning and are looking for answers. It just seemed to me that you were looking for someone to tell you that "Expert" is useless. I had a long drawn out post about the value of "Expert" blah,blah,blah etc,etc. But I said to myself "why bother".

The bottom line on the book is this. It has contains things of great value, both in card handling and advise for cheating and presenting magic. But it's not an easy read, much like reading Shakespeare for the first time, it dosen't always sink in right away. I have read and re-read and re-read parts of the book many times. It dosen't always give up it's gems easily.

Whit said;

"If you want to be an expert, you need to study Erdnase and many other books.

To be a card cheat, you only need to get someone to show you a few moves that can get the money, and then work only in company that is not very fast--or at least slower than you."

This is brilliant.

You have stated outright on this forum that you are trying to learn techniques in order to steal peoples money at the card table. Fine. God Bless You. But that's why I said throw your copy of Erdnase away. If all you want to do is cheat, you don't need all that stuff. It can't hurt, but if all you want to do is steal money from people, you don't need 17 bottom deals, 37 second deals, 2 center deals and 43 cold deck moves. You just don't, you need to learn what you can do in the game/environment that you play in.

Tiger Woods learned to play golf backwards. Golf is played from Tee to Green. But Tiger learned backwards, he learned to putt,then chip, then play his irons and then drive the ball. Examine the situation you will be playing in. Venue, Opponents, Game. And work backwards. If I were going to cheat people, that's how I'd do it.

P.S. As far as Mr Ortizs comments on the book. He's right, of course, in many of his observations. But he also choose to annotate and re-publish the book with his notes. I think that says plenty about how he feels about the book. I'm certain that if he thought it was junk, he wouldn't have bothered to do the tremendous amount of work required to put it together.

P.P.S. And remember, it's not enough to be able to do it. You gotta be able to do at 8:15 PM, Saturday Night, at Madison Square Garden.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
ES Andrews
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Thanks for the response Vandy, I appreciate it.

I didn't mean to give the impression that I think "The Expert At The Card Table" is useless, I just wanted to know what the real card cheats thought about it.

As you and Whit point out, if all you want to do is cheat at cards there is no point learning a lot of moves when just a few will suffice.

That's why I'm asking a lot of questions to the people on this forum. I'm trying to streamline my practice time to the moves that will get the money.
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I appreciate that "ES". And I also understand where you are coming from. Just remember; Internet forums are fun, and you can learn alot. But to what extent ANYONE on this fourm can help you get the money in YOUR game is negligible.

There are a lot of great card handlers and stuff here. And they can help you learn moves, and all that. They can offer fine points on card technique. And offer you their experiences. But that's it. They can't handle the cards for you or sit at the table for you. I have no idea where you play or who you play with. I have no idea if you play with the same people over and over again, or if you are able to find new people to play with. Bottom line is, figure out what would work in YOUR game and start to work on the one or two moves that you think will fly at that game. If you think there is a way to get the money using a second deal, find a second deal that you like and perfect it. If it's bottom dealing, do that. Whatever.

Sorry for rambling. I'm done. I don't have anything more to say about because it's all been said before. Half the people here will tell I'm full of crap. Maybe more than half, maybe all of them. I don't care. I'm done with it and I don't cheat. I believe that very few people here actually move in games. Sorry if this post seems harsh as well, it's not meant to be.

So good luck to you. Go forth and... Just go forth and do whatever you want to do.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
ES Andrews
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Once again Vandy, thank you very much for your advice.
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Take it for what it's worth. When it comes to free advice, you get what you pay for. LOL!
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
C. Loubard
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I believe Vandy and Whit have made some exceptional points. You do not need myriad moves to "get the money."

Ironically, a friend (hustler) and I were discussing this very thing. If something is working for you why spend more time with other sleights. Instead, continue to hone what you already know. Sure, continue to learn other sleights, but don't diregard what you already know. If what you know gets the money then it obviously works... Wow! what I just wrote sounds self-contradicting, however I will leave it in.

E.S., Please don't get caught up with different grips. Players don't care how you hold the cards. Watch the dealers in any of the games on television and you will notice most hold the deck in the "mechanics" grip, some in the "standard" grip and still others in the "straddle" grip. I have also seen one hold the deck in what seemed to be a modified Erdnase, As Mr. Ortiz describes it. And, others yet in a straddle grip... Right Tommy? I, myself, use the mechanics grip and have never been called on it.

I believe you are trying to find the holy grail of cheating. The reality is, it doesn't exist. You have to use what's right for you. Yes, you should have a foundation on which to build upon. EATCT, at the very least, will give you ideas.

Tommy, I would argue with your point about there being nothing in Erdnase's book that couldn't be used today... The second deal comes to mind right away. Of course, I am sure it was just an oversight.

C. Loubard
memph33777
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Doc I liked what you said. you make a lot of sense. in my opinion there is a difference in the mindset of a hustler and a non hustler. in my opinion some of these people don't even know what this is all about. Doc I wonder what you think about people taking dice moves and card moves(cold deck, 2nd and bottom deals etc) and putting this on tv and pulling everybodys coat about it?
Mr. Z
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On 2006-10-31 14:07, ES Andrews wrote:
The card hustlers on the board seem to think it is a book worth studying.


Who would "they" be?
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
memph33777
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Doc I am a street hustler. I don't think a lot of people here like me because of that. but I always say there are only 2 kinds of people in the world and that's slicks and tricks and they don't like one another like a lion and a deer they are natural enemies. but this isn't what I want to talk about. what I want to talk about is doc I take my hat off to you and all the other hustlers out here.
ES Andrews
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Mr. Z, "they" seem to be DOC, C. Loubard, tommy, and EMVT.
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On 2006-10-31 22:35, ES Andrews wrote:
Mr. Z, "they" seem to be DOC, C. Loubard, tommy, and EMVT.


That's quite the lot...
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
tommy
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On 2006-10-31 21:39, C. Loubard wrote:


Tommy, I would argue with your point about there being nothing in Erdnase's book that couldn't be used today... The second deal comes to mind right away. Of course, I am sure it was just an oversight.

C. Loubard




I did make the point that you would argue with.

At my games we have dealers like in a casino. What I said was, if Erdnase arrived as a "player" at my game…..

So he would not be able deal a second or do anything else from his book. Except maybe hold out, which he himself advises not to do from that none dealer position. Erdnase would have to get a job from me dealing to do anything. Erdnase does not mention the use of a card. Erdnase makes no mention of a casino procedure shuffle. I don’t think he mentions a fixed dealer. All these things are standard in poker now when you play serious money but they were not in his day.




“Advantages without dexterity can be taken in almost any card game when two or more players are in collusion, by the use of any secret code of signals that will disclose the hand of each to the others. For instance, in Poker the ally holding the best cards will be the only one to stay, thus playing the best hand of the allies against the rest; quite sufficient advantage to give a large percentage in favor of the combination. Again, the allies may resort to "crossfiring," by each raising until the other players drop out. There are hundreds of small but ultimately certain advantages to be gained in this manner, if collusion is not suspected. No single player can defeat a combination, even when the cards are not manipulated.”

-Erdnase-

If that is true then why mess about in penny ante kitchen table games today risking getting shot using dexterity with the cards when you can use advantages without dexterity using collusion in big games. To answer my own question: The only problem with collusion today is you will certainly be playing against other collusion crews in high stakes games. That is what most pros use today.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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Tommy, you are right... I apologize. Obviously, I glazed over your post and didn't read it correctly. Again, my apolgies... Another fine example of someone not paying attention to what they read.

C. Loubard
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On 2006-10-31 21:50, memph33777 wrote:
Doc I am a street hustler. I don't think a lot of people here like me because of that. but I always say there are only 2 kinds of people in the world and that's slicks and tricks and they don't like one another like a lion and a deer they are natural enemies.

Hey Memph what's up? To answer your question and to be honest with you I don't think they like you either. Why? Our street language and our mind set.

When I first came to the Internet at CNC and the Card Shark site I spoke as you speak now and I got kicked out (not the CNC site) because I voiced my opinion and even though correct, it was the attitude and the way in which I spoke to the forum members that was out right wrong and rude. This is where my new teacher Mr. Glenn Bishop came to my rescue, he seemed to know the problem, not at first but with persistence helped me by calming my street side attitude down of which you now have.

I know that you're cool people and all that and that you'd like to help but they don't understand our street scum of the earth-like attitude in which we have to have in order to stay alert and and to survive on the street. They're looking for a magician like quality or attitude when they speak to us and because we're from the street, we're not having it. If you've ever read the thread "Would A Real Cheat Write This?" you will see a 27 page long thread with a lot of my stuff edited because of my attitude and speech and this is after I calmed down. The last count of the people who was reading about my life experiences was 27,000 when they eventually locked it.

Memph there's nothing wrong with you partner, they just haven't been there like you or I so they really don't understand, so what you have to do is calm yourself down and re-read your post more than one or two times before submitting it while picturing yourself talking to some real young kids and then rephrase your writing. The hustlers and street people here understand that we mean no harm in the way we speak but it's the others that don't understand and this is who you feel doesn't like you.

Oh one more thing, when Jesus Our Lord spoke of the reality in his time the sophisticated said that he was disturbing the peace and ruffling people's feathers in which he was guilty of but He spoke the truth. Now if the people didn't like God who spoke eloquently and firm definitely they are not going to like the way you speak, in other words, you should just tone it down a bit for them.

Respectfully,

Your Friend and Partner in Crime

Doc

P.S. To the readers, you have to experience and know this stuff in order to know how to teach it and how to help others who have this problem. Memph will be alright in his own time and if not we should just accept him as he is, because he actually needs this kind of mentality in order to survive on the streets.

I can't understand them, they want to know the real stuff and the mentality of Erdnase and when the real deal comes along and confronts them they scream bloody murder.

One


Posted: Nov 1, 2006 4:34am
------------------------------------------------
Quote:
On 2006-10-31 21:47, memph33777 wrote:
Doc I wonder what you think about people taking dice moves and card moves (cold deck, 2nd and bottom deals etc) and putting this on tv and pulling everybodys coat about it?

Memph I agree and I disagree with it. Why? Me and you both know that we are not to awake the sleeping but then again why are you and I at these sites? We're trying to get all the info. that's necessary in order for us to be the best that we can be and not get caught while in the process.

Why I posted my videos?

One reason is to manipulate various situations for the benefit of myself being that the internet is world wide.

Another reason was to help you on your control dice shots. You didn't believe I was for real and even though you talked down to me after I wrote you back stating "no disrespect to you:, inside I really understood what you were saying and didn't retaliate as I would have normally done. Sometimes silence is golden and you see, we're friends now.

I know that the rest of these people (suckers) care nothing about the control shooting videos except for a real player. If you think that I'm lying look at how many people saw it and commented on the video compared to the Cold Deck and 3 Card Monte videos.

The main reason why I posted my videos is because the black man is never given credit for what he can do and what we have accomplished in life and even though as you know it, we robbed many of the white guys that you see on TV why is it that they are always given the credit of coming up with the ideas and inventions and we know it's not so. We just don't have access to publicly showing our knowledge and perspective on things therefore our knowledge and stories die with our teachers with no one to remember us nor them.

Oh there is the fact that on my road up to meet my idol I showed a lot of these here famous guys at this site some things and I didn't want them to put my stuff and inventions out as theirs due to the fact that no one would have known me. Everybody wanted me to be UNKNOWN to the world but I saw through that bull****. I might be dumb but I'm definitely not stupid.

You see, these here magicians want quick fame and the quickest way to get there for them is to do gambling demonstrations. There are thousands of broke magicians in Vegas because they are just magicians but when they say that they are gamblers and do our moves, doors open up immediately and this is their ticket to the big times.

Memph my manipulation almost worked, I told them previously that there was a method to my madness and I almost got a movie deal with other ones in the making. You can read about this incident in the thread "The Real Hustle."


Respectfully,

Doc
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Doc your skills are definitely good enough to get a movie deal. maybe you should contact denzel or somebody about doing a movie. they probaly will let somebody else do the acting but use your hands or your moves. doc in my opiinion scarne, garcia, and all those guys they got their game from street hustles then they went and sold it and probaly made millions. I am not a racist but this has went on for the longest. colonel sanders never fried a piece of chicken in his life, he probaly had some old black lady cooking for him and since he had the snaps(money) he made the money. its another case of a man with technology going to africa and finding a diamond big as a grapefruit. the only reason he found the diamond is because he had the money and technology to dig. you have guys in the hood who can shoot pool as good as minnesota fats, better with dice and cards than scarne and garcia but if you r black or poor or black and poor your chances of getting there r diminished. doc you are good very good. I hope you make a million one day with your game. all you have to do is find the right vic. I made 50k one time in 1 day and I played for mine. I am not a drug dealer or a robber. much success to you doc.
tommy
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"All you have to do is find the right vic." That's dead right! But don't skin him, just sheer him, it's much more profitable in the long run.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2006-10-31 14:05, Whit Haydn wrote:
If all you want is the "best" moves to learn to cheat with, you will have to consult an expert.

You have obviously decided against becoming one, since you are willing to let someone else circumscribe your learning.

If you just want a few good moves to get the money, it really doesn't matter what you learn. You just need to get really good at the few moves you do.


Which was my long answer thanks Whit.

I would also like to say that I think there are far fewer actual "card hustlers" here than the poster may think. I am absolutly not one of them. I have been around them, may know one or two things at most, but am not near an expert. But from a lot of what I read there are not too many actual "street hustlers" here or casino cheats. I don't say this is bad, I don't say this is good or indifferent, just that it is.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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