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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Would a real card cheat really study Erdnase? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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ES Andrews
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Don't get me wrong, I love the Expert At The Card Table, but is it really as important as some people make out?

It seems the only real reason a card cheat would study the book is for the psychology behind certain moves. But what of the actual techniques?

As Darwin Ortiz writes in The Annotated Erdnase:
Quote:
Most forms of sleight-of-hand card cheating techniques can be divided into three categories: shuffle work, false deals, and palming and switching. Erdnase is dated in each of these areas.

Should the book be studied just for the psychology and the techniques abandoned?

I can understand a student of close-up magic giving the book serious time and study, but what of the card cheat?

And did Walter Scott really think the book and it's author "a joke"? Or was his opinion motivated by hostility towards Dai Vernon who was linked closely to the book?
Mark Ennis
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I think there is quite a bit to be learned from Erdnase, even if some of the methods are no longer in favor today. Many of the techniques would work in many private games today (ie - false cuts, etc) and as you mentioned, Erdnase has a lot of wisdom that would benefit a future crossroader (attention to detail, uniformity in action, etc).

Also, the legerdemain section of the book still has lessons that are as valuable today as they were in Erdnase's time.

Although I am not as big of a student of the book as many others are, I believe that studying Erdnase would benefit anyone.
ME
Dannydoyle
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To answer the question as simply as possible, probably not.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
daniel1113
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Quote:
On 2006-10-30 11:11, ES Andrews wrote:
Should the book be studied just for the psychology and the techniques abandoned?

That would be my answer. EatCT is full of great advice which is as true today as it was over 100 years ago when it was published. And although the techniques are dated, they are by no means useless, especially when you consider the $7 price tag. Not to mention the mystery of Erdnase that has yet to be solved. Of course, I don't know if any of this has any value for a card cheat that is more concerned about not getting caught than the history and allure of cheating at cards. I find it fascinating, though.
Daniel M. Carrico
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Quote:
On 2006-10-30 11:11, ES Andrews wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I love the Expert At The Card Table, but is it really as important as some people make out?


Yes, it's the beginner’s book of a life of crime.

Quote:
It seems the only real reason a card cheat would study the book is for the psychology behind certain moves. But what of the actual techniques ?

As Darwin Ortiz writes in The Annotated Erdnase:
Quote:
Most forms of sleight-of-hand card cheating techniques can be divided into three categories: shuffle work, false deals, and palming and switching."



This statement is true but it has nothing to do with the actual technique.

Quote:
Erdnase is dated in each of these areas.


To me it all depends in what era you lived in. Go back in time when there were no videos/internet what was your resource then? Books. As I read through these forums I see ya'll talking about the same old magic tricks all the time, are these not dated as well? Ya'll may put a twist or variant to it but overall it's still the same old trick.

Now getting to, is Erdnase stuff dated...yes and no. How can second and bottom dealing be dated? Has any one since the beginning of playing cards invented another way of dealing the second or bottom card that's better than the original? I don't think so, so how could this technique be dated.

99.9% of ya'll still can't do most of the moves in Expert at the Card Table and that includes me and I'm definitely better than a whole lot of you regarding gambling moves, so when did these moves become out dated because I still get the money with these moves?

Does not the 3 Card Monte, 3 Shell Game and The Endless Loop still gets the money on the streets today? Are these not old dated hustles? Today ya'll are just beginning to see Cold Deck moves which were being done way before Scarne showed the world, are these new or out dated moves? These moves are just as old as the rest of the gambling moves are but haven't been seen until now and even though old 99.9% of ya'll after seeing it still can't do it.

Why do you like my (old out dated) cold deck moves? Because you’ve never seen it before; likewise my dice switch.

What about these hold outs etc. that the cheats use...do you own one...can you use one if you had one...where can you purchase one from? What new device that you know of that can cap a deck/money? There is none. So as I previously answered yes and no, yes it may be outdated but it's still up to date. Addition and subtraction is dated but there's has been nothing since the beginning of time to take its place. There are certain things that can be improved upon and then again there are certain things that cannot.

Technology and the Mechanic

In regards to technology in the card mechanic area there can be none, only skill and expertise reign here this is why I always say that every person has their specialties. The only thing in my opinion that technology has done for this (skill) area is make the viewing of these feats more accessible to the public and individuals who want to learn it.

Now that you have this viewing knowledge at your beck and call you call moves that has been getting the money for years out dated. I bet that you didn't know that that "Dollar Store" that you or your family frequents was invented by a 3 Card Monte hustler in order to get people in his store in order to con them. Now look at what it has become today.

Another So Called Out Dated Book

I know of a book that many say is out dated but to me it's still up to date to this very day...This book is called "The Bible." I guess that's why they say that there is nothing new under the sun.

Quote:
And did Walter Scott really think the book and it's author (was) "a joke"? Or was his opinion motivated by hostility towards Dai Vernon who was linked closely to the book?


It depends on your level of expertise at the time of reading the book and Walter was definitely ahead of Erdnase in skill in my opinion. As I quoted before, but I’ll rephrase it this time. Most of the best cheats in the country still can’t do the moves that Walter Scott has demonstrated in his book ‘til this date. Note: In the hustling world you may can do more moves than an individual but that does not mean that you’re better. Less is more to the professional cheat. Example: One cold deck move all night is better than 30 perfect hand mucks. Why? Because I did only one move and got all the money on a suckers deal and was able to leave before the stickup guys come to rob me.

My Conclusion:

That which is out dated is actually not out dated when that particular individual has never seen nor heard of that particular thing before.


Respectfully,

The Doctor
C. Loubard
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Quote:
That which is out dated is actually not out dated when that particular individual has never seen nor heard of that particular thing before.


I agree 100%. The ideology that something so old is outdated does not apply to the cheat. I know of a person who unknowingly (because he's not a magician or a cheat) holds the deck ala erdnase, yet no one has ever said anything to him.

The point of this example is people are just not aware and if they are not aware, they don't know what to look for.

Ask anyone if they have ever heard of Erdnase, outside your circle of magicians, and I assure 98% of them will have not.

C. Loubard
ES Andrews
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Darwin Ortiz writes in The Annotated Erdnase:
Quote:
He concentrates on overhand shuffle techniques, virtually ignoring the riffle shuffle work favored by today's best cheat's. He makes no mention of the strike second deals, the most popular method today, and he teaches only a push-out bottom deal rather than the "take" approach favored by present-day base dealers in order to avoid finger flash. In the realm of palming, he teaches the full palm which has been almost abandoned by present-day cheats and fails to mention the flat palm and gambler's cop, the prime moves used today in hold-out work and hand mucking.

I can understand using The Expert At The Card Table as inspiration and fundamental insights, but I don't think time should be wasted learning the older methods when better ones exist, (according to Darwin Ortiz). I just trust his opinion. Is he wrong?

I think for magical purposes everything in the book should be studied, but as the card cheaters on this board have said in the past, you should take the best of what can be used form a book and discard the rest.
gump
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Quote:
Would a real card cheat really study Erdnase?

The short answer is yes.

You can find some really great stuff in old, sometimes bland-looking books, that some would consider outdated... so long as you take the time to look through them.

The real key to your success, whether as a cheat or as a magician, is your own ingenuity, open mind, and the willingness to always [at least] look for a "better way of doing things" so to speak.
Jaz
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Since EATCT came out there have been tons of new ideas and techniques.
To my knowledge, there's no one resource that covers all facets of cards.

You say, "you should take the best of what can be used from a book and discard the rest". Well that's true with anything. Some folks may prefer these 'outdated' techniques over newer ones and find them quite usable.
ES Andrews
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I just don't want to learn and work on moves that don't work and realise after years of practise that I have to unlearn them. I trust the opinion of Darwin Ortiz and when he points out in "The Annotated Erdnase" that a move in "The Expert At The Card Table" is inferior to another, I would rather learn the improved method.

I appreciate peoples opininon on this board as well, so I'm just trying to learn from you all.
sodman12
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I think the biggest mistake someone can make is saying one way of doing something is better than another. There are few instances that I can think that this would be true.

I think sometimes people get so caught up in the moves they don't leaner the really important things. such as making up your own sutff on the spot.

In most of the games I play in everyone shuffles different and theres no set way to deal cut or shuffle. now if you play in high stakes games where you have to follow a set guideline then there are better and inferior moves that can be put to use.
But I'm going to guess that those type of games are not populated by the people who post on these forums. But I may be wrong
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
C. Loubard
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Sodman you are correct. The games I frequent have everyone shuffling differently. Due to the over exposure of poker on television however, I find more and more people trying to emulate the dealers they see on television. This doesn't mean that overhand shuffling is obsolete, far from it. Overhand shuffling is alive and thriving.

I have a philosphy I try to stick by, "You never want to appear better than the best player at the table." This, of course, only holds true if you have not been hired on as a professional dealer.

ES Andrews, I would not worry about over ****yzing what Mr. Ortiz wrote about in the Annotaded Erdnase. While he is a respected author, his opinion is subjective in nature.

I have seen beautiful push-off second deals. Deals that were not only visually deceptive but psychologicaly deceptive as well, Mr. Turner comes to mind. The inverse is also true as well. Mr. Nash has a beautiful strike second. One would be considered accomplished in second dealing if they were to reach the proficiency these two gentlemen have assumed.

The strike bottom, in my opinion, is superior, although many a magician would argue that.

I would urge anyone to study the book and ignore the fact the book was published in 1902. Date has no meaning when it comes to sleights. After all they were created to deceive. I am sure they have upheld that for the last 104 years since the book was first published

C. Loubard
tommy
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If your going for formal high stakes poker games I would suggest you learn from Erdnase (1) all the riffle shuffle work and (2) the riffle shuffle peek. Obviously you would need to be the dealer and work with a partner. Oh…. and also Best Hand play, in fact to become expert in Best Hand play is the best thing two pals could learn from Erdnase for that sort of game.

If your playing at the kitchen table then Darwin Ortiz or Walter Scott are guys you should study.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
EMVT
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All I can say is that I totally agree with DOC on his fabulous thread as far as people saying outdated and obsolete and not being good anymore, I too am a hustler and I go out and I know the real work.

Now many of you may say that yeah yeah whatever! I don't need to prove myself by putting up videos on youtube or anything and nothing against DOC either, all ya'll other hustlers and magicians should be proud and grateful and it definitely should make anyone think about these beautiful techniques that DOC demonstrates beautifully with grace and ease and that many of these techniques were started and originated from Erdnase's time, and what about Erdnase?

Not just knowing these moves that he originated on his behalf but actually playing in games and looking for what would and could work as he definitely knows what he's talking about because he truly was an EXPERT!

So yes these techniques do work and yes there has been great modifications made to these beautiful sleights which work even better but the source of this great book and mystery of the man remains untouched and unsurpassed like a precious stone.

P.S. Us card cheats are the ones who know what works and what doesn't and you know why? because we have ****yzed the whole game and all of it's little quirks that go with it so knowing the moves is one thing and knowing the way your mind and hands must work together with one another when you are totally surrounded with other card players this is the REAL DEAL and you must know what to do EXPERTLY at the right moment to get the $MONEY then and only then will you truly become an EXPERT AT THE CARD TABLE!

May this great man rest in PEACE with the utmost respect and admiration, YOUR LOYAL STUDENT FOREVER

EMVT



So what I'm trying to say is yes there will always definitely be improvements on techniques and sleights but lets be honest here what if no one ever read Erdnase I know many great magicians would have created great ideas but it is this man right here and his book which has stood the test of time ever since then and until now which is how I base my fun and leisure operating and executing this mans great techniques at the card table with flawless execution and ease with these added improvements of course, that are available to us at the moment.
ES Andrews
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So what I can gather is, the real card cheats (DOC, C. Loubard, tommy, EMVT), are saying you can take any technique from "Expert At The Card Table" and without modification, the methods from the book can be used to cheat? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
sodman12
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Quote:
On 2006-10-31 10:15, ES Andrews wrote:
So what I can gather is, the real card cheats (DOC, C. Loubard, tommy, EMVT), are saying you can take any technique from "Expert At The Card Table" and without modification, the methods from the book can be used to cheat? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Of course the moves can be used to cheat. that's not the question.
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
ES Andrews
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My original question has been answered, a real card cheat would study Erdnase. It just seems that the original methods taught by Erdnase are not atually being used. For example DOC does not use the push-out method for the bottom deal that is taught in "Expert" but uses the "take" approach. He also uses the Standard Grip instead of the Erdnase grip, and takes with the index finger instead of the third finger. He is not actually using the methods from the book but has seemed to have improved on them immensely. So if the moves are not outdated and they are deceptive why use any other method than those taught in the book?
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Quote:
On 2006-10-31 12:40, ES Andrews wrote:
So if the moves are not outdated and they are deceptive why use any other method than those taught in the book?



You use what works for you in the games you play. Where you get the moves from and the individual handlings are of no importance. Geeeze. Throw the book away, It will be of no use to you.

Find something you like, that will work for you, and perfect it. Try not to devote more than a couple of hours a day to mental masturbation and spend more time with cards in hand. And get on with your life. The question of the validity of Expert at the Card Table is not that important in the Grand Scheme.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
tommy
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Quote:

On 2006-10-31 10:15, ES Andrews wrote:
So what I can gather is, the real card cheats (DOC, C. Loubard, tommy, EMVT), are saying you can take any technique from "Expert At The Card Table" and without modification, the methods from the book can be used to cheat? Please correct me if I'm wrong.




I am saying in an informal game. That is game that does not look like a game in a casino, a game where they use no cut card, a game where the players deal themselves and so on, then you could use Erdnase techniques, if you executed them perfectly. They are all beautiful moves when done well.
But you don’t have to use Erdnase techniques. I prefer a different bottom deal for example, it is not better, it’s just different.

What you have to bear in mind with Erdnase, is that in 1902 the only poker game in town was draw poker and it was played in an informal way. You have to have played this game to know what I mean. Back in the 60s and early 70s draw poker was still being played every where in England just like in the Erdnase days. With four or five guys at a table and used more or the Erdnase system to cheat in them game with out a problem.

Now it is quite different. Most poker is Hold’em like games and moreover it is played in a much more formal manner when it’s played for serious money a sort of controlled environment. Almost everywhere they use a dealer, a cut card a set procedure and so on. And so in such games much of Erdnase is obsolete. But it is not obsolete in kitchen table games, if you find them. If Erdnase himself was to arrive at my game tonight as player intending to cheat there would nothing from his book he could apply according to his own advice. He would have throw the book away and have a rethink. The whole dynamics of the game have changed. Ednase at my game would asking himself what do the mean a dealer button and what’s blank card for that put on the bottom the deck, what the ….are these cards made of and why does each dealer shuffle the deck exactly the same way and how could cheat if I had to shuffle the deck the same way and what the ….is this game they are playing anyway. Ok I I have it, I can HOLD out! but wait….

“TO HOLD out in a card game is the riskiest and most dangerous form of taking advantage that a player may attempt, but it can be, and is, successfully practiced when cleverly performed and the player is not suspected. But the only hold out that we consider really safe is made by the dealer, and but for the moment of cutting. After a blind shuffle, with the desired cards on the bottom, the dealer palms in the left and passes the deck with the right to be cut.”

At this point he would be asking where he could find a game of draw and I would asking where had been for the last hundred years. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Whit Haydn
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If all you want is the "best" moves to learn to cheat with, you will have to consult an expert.

You have obviously decided against becoming one, since you are willing to let someone else circumscribe your learning.

If you just want a few good moves to get the money, it really doesn't matter what you learn. You just need to get really good at the few moves you do.
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