I wrote some days ago :
"I received my Fitch Kohler Proffessional Holdout System yesterday , it is very well made , like all the Porper stuff , it comes in a very nice leather wallet..."

Thomas wrote me this message

Peter,

I'm pleased that you like the holsout system; it was a long time in the making.

FYI, Joe porper DOES make the case for the system. However, the entire system is manufactured by me; in fact, I even DESIGNED the case that Porper makes for us.

Again, thanks for the kind words about the system. Along with several "beta testers" I've been working with it for over a year now and it has brought my own magic up to an entirely new level. You currently have an advantage over me, though, since I haven't received the DVDs yet (soon, I expect).

Regards,
Thomas Wayne


Sorry Thomas , keep on going with the good work !!!

Now that a long time has passed since the newness has had a chance to wear off, does anyone that has actually used it care to share their experiences?

Maybe discribe an effect you have actually used with the hold out and how it has made you performance better.

Anyone wear it every day like the originator?

Bill

Addition:

I can't believe with all the hype in this string, noone is still using this. I guess everyone moved onto the next new thing.

Bill

Bill,

If you are referring to the F/K Holdout, I too am curious about the same issues as you are.

But, perhaps, the new owners are afraid of being sued if even a peep comes out of their mouth about it.. The impression was given that as long as they were totally silent about it....NO ONE would know they were even using it!!!

If we hear nothing more about it...I am incline to agree with you. Just my opinion.

There you go trying to inflame the holdout issue.

I know of at least 12 people who use the holdout regularly and all are happy to talk about it, but most have better things to do than talk about it to a bunch of stangers on the internet. After all what good comes of talking about it to people who cannot help them improve. Unless you have the device, you really have nothing to add to the discussion. As I understand it, mdspark, you do not have the device.

The idea of being sued is just ridiculous and I can see no reason for your making it other than as a thinly veiled insult to Kohler and his desire to try to protect at least one product out there in the world. Microsoft will not sue you for talking about using windows, and in both cases you lease the product. However you cannot reverse engineer windoes and sell it as your own, likewise with the Kohler product.


So, to solve your paradox, why would owners want to talk about it? If we did we might encourage others to get it and why would we want others to have the same tools we have. Most of us covet our magical resources and are happy not everyone has the same tools at their disposal. Another reason is that the people who have made that investment, by and large, are not those that frequent this forum. Many of them in fact find this open forum to be the opposite of that which magic strives for. Also, many are working professionals who simply do not care what others think.

I feel the need to come on here and correct downright untruthful statements that get bandied around carelessly and try to clear up the negative aspersions those with other agendas feel required to make.

It's a thankless job, but as long as stupid things are said, I will be here to clear things up for the rest of us.

Mdspark & truthteller,

Sorry to disappoint you, but this thread is about the Perfect Holdout, I really don't care about a $2000 module holdout.

I have no interest in F/K holdout. It may be great, but I am just not interested.

I want a working mans holdout, like perfect. He used and developed it. I am interested in $200 egg vanisher not a $2000 one.

I use to own the original Jack Miller/Tannen sold in the late 1960's and early 1970's. I also looked at the $50 version of the perfect HO by the same inventor. I wanted to know if it was the same thing, only you get a tape to assist you in the development.

Also, I really wanted to know if everyone just put it in a drawer and forgot about it, or are as Jack Miller did, actually wear and use it on a regular basis.

Any care to share a story about using this third hand?

Bill

Wmhegbli

Unless you are working every day and are wearing a jacket, you are not going to use it all the time. If you are not performing regularly, or don't wear a jacket regularly, I would assume any HO will end up in a drawer more than in use.

As for what the Romero Holdout is, he fully details it at http://www.tallerdemagia.com I do not think the Romero holdout has ever been available for $50 (but then again the first time I was ever made aware of it was with its recent release) - Vernet's "Invisible Hand" which is a modified Miller holdout is avialable for that $50 price tag. The above website also shows a drawing of the Vernet holdout as well.

After visiting that page you will know if that is what you have already or not.

If you used to use one in the 60's and 70's, did you regularly use it, or did it end up in a drawer? If it did end up in a drawer, ask yourself why, has anything changed now that will keep it in your jacket?

That is probably a more important question then asking others if it ended up in their drawer. Everyone is different and have different circumstances. Since your profile says that your occupation is a Magician and you like stage magic and manipulation, I would assume you wear a jacket often, and would make use of such a device. So that answer is probably answered already.

BTW - You can't vanish an egg with the Romero holdout unless you modify the egg to make it stick to a magnet, or make some time of egg holder to attach to a magnet.

I thought my remarks might liven up this thread again......

Dan,

I read a bit of "attitude" in your write up. What is your problem!

But to answer you question, yes I wear a jacket all the time, sport and casual. If it get to 90 plus degrees I take it off. That is the problem today is poor dress with people. Back in the 60's I was in banking and did attempt to use the original regularly and many others that I enjoyed to carry with me.

Thanks for the info, so to pose my question. Is the Invisible hand the same as the Perfect Holdout with only added feature like the tape and a magnet gimmick?
Having a magnet around computers is not good you know, I am sure.

And yes people get "Hooked" on certain things, the last person to re-vive and old "tool" was Michael Ammar with "Topit". Sewing it in all his jackets. I have the original of this from England, Davenports.

Lastly, I did go to your suggested site and found nothing but some things that were copied to this string.

I would like to hear from anyone who is mastering this utility device. Relating any experiences they have encoutered where they feel the holdout created something unusual for them.

Bill

Bill, I was honestly trying to answer your questions. I just re-read my post and I don't see how you can infer I have a bit of attitude - I truly do not, other than an attitude of sincerely trying to help. I really try to be a helpful person, I have a website that's primary goal is helping people with coin magic... but I digress...

Let my try to quickly paraphrase the intent of my posts:

1. People who don't perform regularly or wear jackets typically won't use it. (I also agree with your below assessment of poor dress of people) this is probably the biggest hindrance to those who's performance wear is a T-shirt and jeans worn down at the knees.

2. The second paragraph was intended to help you ascertain the difference between the Romero holdout and the Vernet one. Your original post as written seemed to indicate that Romero also had a $50 version. I just took a guess you meant the Vernet version. Your subsequent post seems to clarify that. As for the web page – read this one specifically. It shows pictures and fully explains the Romero holdout. Also read specifically this one. This page shows the history of the holdouts leading up to Romero’s. After viewing both of those pages (which have pictures as well so you can see the differences) you will be able to see the exact differences. Answering your question directly, the major difference with the Romero unit is the addition of a differential pulley to change the ratio of opposite arm movement needed to move the business end of the holdout. The other major difference is that his end is a magnet in a little bag, not a clothespin type gripper with a fishing weight.

3. I am honest in asking my question regarding your prior usage and if you stopped using it. If you did use one, and then stopped using it, I was sincerely asking why. This would provide insights into if you would use the Romero version. In your above subsequent post you said that in the 60’s you used it regularly and enjoyed carrying it. I am still curious as to why you stopped using it, if that is the case.

4. I then looked at your profile and it provided me some context to your probable usage. To me this means, you wear a jacket, and could benefit from such a device. In my mind this information is more valuable than the opinion of someone else who may not wear jackets or perform regularly.

5. My last paragraph was honestly to let you know you can’t vanish an egg with the Romero unit as is. Your prior post seemed to suggest that was your intended use in looking for an egg vanisher.

As for hearing from someone who is mastering the Romero holdout, here I have to bail out. I am not one who is experienced in the actual usage of the device.

I hope I have continued to help, that is my honest reason for posting.

Very Sincerely,

Dan

Dan,

Thanks for your comments, I was under the understand that Romero and Vernet were partners and assumed (maybe wrongly) that as business partners they would share the sale of merchandise.

That is why I was wondering if the Perfect Holdout was an improvement over the Invisible Hand that also included a book by Romero. The book is really worthless, that is included with the Invisible Hand, but it does come with 2 gimmicks.

Why did I discontinue the use of the original? Not that it is matter with this topic, but life moves on.

Now, I still would like to hear any stories that someone has after using the Invisible Hand for a year.

Bill

Greco and Michel Clavello are the partners for Vernet, who are from Argentina.

Romero is a magician from Spain.

I believe there were some stories from people that use various holdouts in prior holdout threads. There is a lot to sift through, but if you type "holdout" into the Café search engine you will find them.

Dan,

Thanks for staightening me out on that on the names, looks like they all came out at the same time, and I did not pay close enough attention to details.

I have tried and tried the search engine and it will not work for me, just keep getting messages that I need to pick more or need longer names etc. Nope, it won't work for me.

Bill

If I am not mistaken Romero learned a lot about HO work from the Vernets. From there he took it one step "further". I also think there are no hard feelings between the two parties.
I am using the Perfect Hold-out for two routines. Regularly...but not always. It is my effort to get acquainted with such a system. Yes, it takes a lot of self-discipline.

Bill,

Since Dan offered up the fact that he uses the Perfect Holdout, he has posted comments about using it in the past in a different thread.

You would probably want to read Dan's posts Here and Here.

Thanking everybody on their comments!
The "Perfect Holdout" is on my wish list.
Gerard

Gotta chime in, here!

Jack Miller's is the one I use and have used since early on, when "Hold Out Miracles" was found so long ago in a dusty old Magic Shop and joined my little library.

I made mine. Fishing weight, alligator (large-jaw) clip, and white nylon cord tied to an old leather watch strap.

I can still do the cleanest Cut & Restored Rope I know. That thing just GLIDES up and down. Put a ball holder in the clip...nice...in and out. Within the last ten years, I've grown partial to the Raven, but it does not "deliver" the way the Hold Out does...that pun was unintentional, but I need all the help I can get lately, so if that made ya laugh, all the better!

I cannot imagine improving this. For less than $10, this tool had paid for itself MANY times over.

Long live the Holdout, in ANY form!

Doug

Anyone know if the Jay Scott Berry sleeve topit interferes with the holdout?

I would imagine it could cause problems if you have something that can hang up on the sleeve pocket. The holdout probably would work most of the time, but have a chance to hang up occasionally, so my guess (no experience here) is that you don't want to combine them.

Thanks Dan. They're cheap so I am going to get them and see what things look like. Maybe I can just use the left one.

Bruce

I can get Antonio Romero holdouts for anyone interested,brand spanking new, at lessthan you'll find elsewhere.please email me for more info if interested.
I had placed a link to my site, but this was deleted, as it is against the magic Café policy (sorry).
you can reach me at doglover@ny.com or through the email system here.
regards
magicman (rmecsw)