I would like to ask a question to those that wear a tail jacket for dove magic. My chest size in the U.K. is 39 inches. How much room do you recommend to house the doves? Should I go for a size 5 inches more?

Thanks

Carl

A lot depends on the size of your doves but a general rule of thumb is to get a jacket 2 sizes larger than you normally wear. Take up the difference with shoulder pads and stiffening if necessary. Another factor is how many doves you intend to hold. One or two may not require such a large size difference.

Thanks Dave,

great info as usual.

carl

Dave, when you say 2 sizes larger, what exactly does that mean? For instance, if I normally wear a size 44 jacket, would I need a 46, or 48?

Thanks!

Regan

My Tux coat is just one size bigger than normal. For instance, I normally wear an athletic cut 42R, but my tux tail coat is 44R. The reason for this is because as Dave mentioned is the "fill-in" space with the Shirt, Vest, T-shirt, and the doves. One size bigger usually fits the bill unless you are planning on producing Pigeon Sized doves! *haha* - You also may want to take into consideration of personal weight gain and loss. A Jacket that is too tight will be even tighter as time goes by, unless you are one of those lucky ones that " weighs 100 nuthin' and 5 foot nuthin" (Quote from the movie 'Rudy'). It also depends on how many doves you want to produce from a certain area. Bigger Coats have more surface area, hence, more doves. BUT, BUT, BUT If your jacket is too large for you, once the doves have been produced, your coat wil look huge on you, and very unnatural. This is where the shoulder pads and such come in.

Regan, yes if you wear a 44, then I'd try a 46. Depending on the designer, you may need a 48. I've run into this. I wear a 48 and had to buy a 52 then had it altered a bit so it didn't look like a tent. Of course the ideal thing to do is have a jacket made for you. Take the loaded harnesses with you to a tailor and have the jacket made to accomodate your requirements. I've only had this done once. Since then I buy my tuxes right off the shelf. Want to get some weird looks from people this will do it. When I go for a new jacket, I put gym socks in the harnesses and take them with me. When I try on the jacket, I put the harness inside where the doves will be. Then look in the mirror (and at the looks on peoples faces ). If you see bumps, then the jacket is too small.

As alpha said, you don't want it to be too big. I always get double shoulder pads in my jackets. That way, it sits the same with or without the birds. It also gives the shoulders more of a squared off look rather than a sag.

Thanks guys. Both of you provided some great information! You have been a great help!

Regan

Is there a big difference between a tailcoat & a morning coat, because I've been looking at various jackets.

carl

There are three things I would like to add to this.

1. My regular size is 42R and I wear 44R in costumes. The difference only shows when the coat is buttoned.

2. To help keep the front of the coat flat but flexible with body loads, cut a piece of #7 mesh plastic craft grid ($.24 at WalMart for a 10.5" x 13.5" sheet) to fit the inside (breast) pockets of your coat. It smoothly hides any sharp lines or bulges of a load.

3. There is a world of difference between a tail coat (white tie tux) and a morning coat (also called a stroller). The coats and ties are very different and the pants for a stroller are always gray or gray stripes. Except at a "tea" there are virtually no times when a stroller would be appropriate dress for an adult. The stroller is not for evening wear and is not worn with a bow tie. The white tie tux is never inappropriate for formal dress. The stroller coat is cut very much like a sport coat in front. The white tie tux coat is cut very short in the front and will not button. Strollers are popular at day time equestrian events (Kentucky Derby, etc.) and very formal daytime funerals. (Night funerals are illegal in many states of the USA!)

My best advice is that a morning suit is only useful for day time parades, very old bankers (Banks are closed at dark!) and some head waiters at lunch. The red one worn by ring masters at the circus is just a costume for the circus. (I have seen artists' works where they did not know the difference and drew a red tail coat that stopped at the waist.)

Also be aware that white tie means “white tie and vest”. Cummerbunds do not go with any formal tail coat. Bright colors, colored ties, and colored shirts are for costumes and not formal adult dress. (Yes, I have had a good laugh at several weddings too! I wondered why they did not wear tennis shoes and a baseball cap to complete the outfit.)

Costumes are fine during your act. But please change to appropriate dress before rejoining the audience. This is a major reason why professional entertainers perform in white tie or black tie. It saves changing between shows.

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander

Sorry Bob,

maybe I should ask question in a different way. I'm looking for jacket to perform dove magic with. However in my research these two makes of jacket seem to appear the most, tailcoat & morning coat. So I suppose the question I'm asking, will the different cut of the jacket effect whereupon the doves can be placed.

Cheers

Carl

Peeps,

Well here is my personal experience. Personally all of my jackets are 4 times larger, personally I use multilayer jean material as stiffener in my outfits and 1/4 inch foam for the shoulder pads. The shoulder size is 1 1/2 inches longer on both sides.

The foam supports my shoulder pads, makes me look like I fit in the jackets since they are 4 sizes larger than me, they also allow me to put my dove pockets deeper in my jacket, it brings in the chest, makes the jacket wear flatter and I can avoid having to wear ruffles in my shirt, I never liked the retro-ruffle look tuxedo shirt (I am trapped in the 70’s tuxedo look).

After the dove pockets are safety pinned into the jacket and the doves are in, my tailor marks the sides and then tapers them to what looks best. I aim for the " V " shape as discussed in the Tony Clark video.

I do have a jacket that is 2 times larger than me but it looks awkward, the dove load makes my chest increase several inches, it looks wrinkly and does not wear flat with the doves loaded. After the dove act it looks like I lost 20 lbs.

Just my experience and I have recommended these guidelines to some of my dove students, here in Los Angeles.

G0THIKE

So which will be recommended tail coat or morning coat?

Jarana,

To me the last thing anyone needs is a morning coat. The white tie tux coat is short, squared front and open. Good ones are also very heavy. They hang well when loaded. I cannot steal any more doves from a long stroller coat than a short tux tail coat. However, the accessibility of the vest with the short front tail coat lets me get away with murder for body steals. The tails in the same coat are much easier for vanishes than the long front morning coat too. I would honestly look for ways to avoid the morning coat. It is of very limited use, takes special pants not useful elsewhere, a special tie of limited use, and is less formal and at times totally inappropriate. Certainly I would prefer a plain sport coat over the morning suit. Most paying shows are after six anyway when the morning suit is absolutely inappropriate.

If you will buy a really good black tie outfit (dinner jacket) and another white tie outfit (formal tails), only the coats differ. (You could use the same vests and tie in many cases.) The shirt, shoes and pants with the stripe down the side are interchangable. (Normally strollers are not worn with patent lace up shoes. There are special boots and/or spats for them good for little else.) Take a look at the man in your Monolopy game!

For stage magic having pants that match the (square cut) coat can also work to the magicians' advantage. Morning suits have gray pants. (In Europe they are actually cosidered "dove colored".)

I have several white tie (short front with tails) suits. Most are solid black but some are very dark blue or muted stripes. I use them for other social occasions as well as magic. I also have a few silver ones that are strickly costumes for stage only. I've never ever had a need for a morning coat. Most entertainers never will either.

Stick to real tuxedos. Morning coats have very limited use. And when they are wrong, a diaper would just as acceptable! Don't embarrass yourself or your employer.

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander

Thanks Bob - appreciate your help.

Jaime