Bishthemagish,

You are right in a sense that it might sometimes be easier for a hustler to pull his moves off than a magician, for the magician's profession can and will present people that burn your hands while you do that pass.

"It takes the same amount of nerve". I disagree with that for one reason. There is danger involved in hustling. I don't know about you, but my life is worth a lot to me and I would be more nervous to try to pull off a deck switch in front of some killers, People who don't care if you were to live or die, than to do an ambitious card routine in front of an audience.

Just my humble thoughts,

Jeremy

Hi Jeremy thanks for posting.

Please add this as food for thought. When I was talking about magicians I am talking about a special branch of magic - card shark magicians. They are in a special group of magicians because they specialize in card shark moves and often do entertainments exposing alleged card shark methods.

One of the major differences in how a magician does the moves and how a card sharp does the moves is that the magician throws a spotlight on it. I have done demonstrations with the second deal and the ability to demonstrate the second deal and then do it well enough to fool them is not an easy thing to do.

The card sharp does a second and the other people at the table (unless working with a partner or a mob) most likely don't even know that he or she can deal seconds. or bottoms or whatever move that they specialize and use as a cheating technique.

Please forgive me but I did not know that husslers today "Played with Killers." It would be my opinion that a card sharp "chooses the game" and is careful who they sit in with. And they do not move in a game until they feel that they can get away with it. If they feel that they might not get away with it - they don't move in the game.



I am sorry I am not talking about magicians that do standard card magic including routines like you suggested above like the Ambitious card. I am talking about magicians that wrote card sharp books like John Scarne and Frank Garcia. The were very good magicians but also were very knowledgeable about card sharp techniques.

And the old argument of magicians being to chicken to move in a real game and that they are pretend card sharps. Or bathroom card sharps or want-to-be card sharps is really very silly. Magicians - and I can't speak for all of them - most of them that I have met that can do "the real work" card sharp material as part of their program don't have the "need" to cheat at the card table.

Please try to understand my point.

When and how the moves are done or how they are performed are in two different environments and they are done to have different objectives. The card sharp does the second deal in secret and the outcome is different and if they are not in with partners in reaching his objective the activity happens is unknown to the other players.

When a magician does the second deal and throws a spotlight on it in a demonstration every eye in the room is on the magicians hands. That takes more nerve - and the magician must do the move well to pull it off for an audience.

Just my opinion.

Yes, and I am agreeing with your last point of the fact that the actual "moves" might be slightly easier to excecute since the other players are completly sleep to the "real work" than an audience watching every move.

Though if you are playing in a very high stakes game the tension is very high and players will be watching your every move.

I'm not argueing the fact that the moves can be easier to pull off.
I think these are different kinds of "nerves" we are talking about.
I know from experience, "performing" the real work for a critiquing audience can be very nerve wrecking as they already know somthing amiss is going on. They can't just keep getting all four aces randomly.
That is performing nerves as I will put it.

The other kind of nerves is a "fear for your life" nerves, but people like DOC and others who have been in this hustling business for more than a decade probably are not as nervous. Its just a way to make money. I am speaking for myself when I say I get more nervous "before" the cheating is executed than during or afterwards.
The determining factor are the stakes.

Again Bishmagish,
Just my humble opinion

Jeremy

I can think of a million little reasons why Oprah wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole.

btw There's so much whining going on here I thought I was in the "suckers" forum.

A.

And they the other players have no idea that the card sharp or card sharps "can" move! And that "is" my point.

Magicians tell people that they "can" second deal and then they do the second deal and still fool them. There may be a card sharp that can tell the other players how they are going to cheat and then do it. But I have never seen that happen or heard of that happening.

I have known several magicians that tell the audience about cheating technique and then spotlight it. Then use it over and over again. To me that takes a lot of nerve and skill more nerve and skill than magicians that can do this are credited with today.



I had no idea you were speaking personally. You should see some magicians before a show. I have seen some that never lose the shakes. Some of the old timers turned to drink and drugs to calm the nerve problem.

Hi Bish

Long time no see.

For what it’s worth I think if anyone can get the money without any risk they are certainly not suckers. Memphis seems to think that anyone who works for a living is a sucker. I think David Copperfield has got more than all the hustlers put together and if that’s a sucker then I want to be one. Copperfield would not bother getting out of bed for what he could win in a pool hall card game.

As for nerve: While both the magician and the cardsharp need it, I think it is a different fear that that they face. Each to his own. I have actually worked with true pro bank robber, a black guy, a guy who was fearless and cool as a cucumber when doing his thing, however this guy could not cut to a brief when I needed him to. His hand was shaking like a leave. It was not that he needed more nerve than when robbing a bank it was that it wasn’t his thing.

Anyway nice to see you Glen and I hope you and your gang are well.

Regards

Tommy

Ok the tension in a friendly low stakes game at home with your buddies say for 100 or so to me would be nothing like the tension in a high stakes game.

Your buddies are like you said a sleep to the fact you are pulling off cheating. But if you go where DOC has been, they "know of" the cheating moves and will be watching you like a hawk.

To be frank, I am tired of argueing about this so lets just accept our differences and go on and to be friends. Its really not worth loosing sleep over.lol

Jeremy

A discussion twixt friends who don't always agree doesn't make it an argument.

Specially if you kill him.

Or somthing less dramatic, take his money.

Hey Tommy and Silverking how have you been?

I did not know we were having an argument Jeremy Brown it is my point of view that to be a magician or a card sharp I would think that it would be better if they were the kind of fellow that people want to be around. Card sharps blend in, shuffle the same way that others do at the table. They move only when they are going to get away with it.

That limits the risk factor.

As for the life and death thing there are every day people that work on the roads and in high construction jobs that are at more risk than what could happen if a card sharp gets caught. I have posted about this before here in the Café.

I remember the movie about a pick pocket called Harry in your pocket. One of the interesting things that was said in that movie was - that some pick pockets take the same risk for a 2 dollar dip as they do for a 500 dollar dip. The risk of getting caught in a small home game is the same as in a big money game.

The tension on the sharp depends on the person moving in the game. It is one of those sensations that Erdnase talks about. How the man feels not on the risk or what "might" happen. Who is moving is just as important as who he or she is doing the moves on.

Sorry - I only gamble with my life never my money!

DC certainly has more money than God...

Erdnase I will be associating myself with TheCount.

Am I nervous? Hell yeah, all the time.

I need help. I'm in Houston and I want to know who 's on here that lives here that I want to meet.

Memph I'm in your town.

I can't type much on this treo.

Respectfully

Doc

DOC I am in Memphis not Houston.

Posted: Nov 14, 2006 3:33am
JEREMY I AGREE with your post. if a magician messes up in front of a lot of people its no big deal because it was folly anyhow but if you mess up when you r hustling you can be killed etc. its a big difference. Another thing scarne and garcia were fooling suckers and I think there is a difference in somebody watching a exibition and somebody who regulary views things such as dice games and card games. people who watch magic shows have no idea what to look for. example I think there is a big difference in cheating in the casino than putting on a show on stage. cause the casino you can go to jail and in the streets you can be killed. that's just my opinion.

Posted: Nov 14, 2006 3:47am
Bishthemagish I disagree with what you said above. If a magician screws up it is no big deal. he can go home and try it again next week. But if you r playing with guys who you have beat out of $20k and you are doing a bottom or second deal I believe it is a different thing. As they say put your money where your mouth is(not talking about you), what I am saying is when you are gambling you have your life on the line, you have something to lose, but when you r doing magic you can screw up and its no big deal!

Cut the crap and get to the point. The point is.. The money! The more you got the better the hustler you are and it don't matter how you got it.

It's not always the best hustler who makes the most money. It's the hustler who has ACCESS to the suckers with large amounts of $$$.

A mediocre hustler, who just happens to be around high stakes games can make more $$$ than a really good hustler who is only exposed to low(er) stakes games.

Sorry I don't agree with this because it is a hobby magician's point of view. Whoever thinks this has no idea of contracts, negotiations, performance, promotion, challenge client management and challenge audience management that MANY long time professional magician's often has to “deal” with.

Pun intended.

I agree with Tommy and his point of view.

I also would like to add that it is my point of view that magicians like John Scarne and Frank Garcia are not bathroom card sharks and it is my opinion that the statement above about them teaching instead of doing is false. Magicians do not have the need to cheat at the card table and what people like this do - often they do not get the credit that they deserve.

I have heard over and over again how some card sharps laugh at magicians and say how some of the moves that they do wouldn't fly in a real game. I have been told myself that I do card sharp moves like a magician. Well, that is because I am a magician and doing it this way "gets the money."

If I were to cheat at a card table I would "change" the way I do things so I could get the money that way. And most magicians I know that could do the "real deal" stuff with cards would do the same. And I would think that Frank Garcia and John Scarne and others that do this kind of material would be smart enough to blend in with the environment if they would choose to walk that road.

I am now going to close this post by talking about Doc and his deck switch that I saw him do on you-tube. That was one of the best things that I have seen and I am glad I got to see it before I died. Seeing something like that was a privilege. I don't know the moves and how he did it but then again I don't want to know the moves and how he did it. I would rather admire it.

I have no need for a deck switch such as that in the environment where I get the money. See my point? Each of us - magician or card sharp does what is needed to get the money - and it is not about which one is better. Or has more nerve.

There both different and use what is needed in each environment. And do it the way it is needed to get the money.

Well done Doc!

We don't call them Marks for nothing.

Marks, stooges, suckers, clients, fans there is always a name for people that are not - in the know. I tend to treat them with respect because without them there is no money and I would have to get a real job.

I was just commenting on what Gump was saying Glen. I just meant it's part of the game to find the right marks. That film you mentioned Harry in your Pocket has a good example, as I recall he had a guy, an expert, at choosing the right marks to hit.

I don't really see any one as a sucker, I sort of see everyone as a hustler. Magicians are not stealing, I am not saying that but a magician has to hustle in a sense, to get the crowds and get bookings and stuff like that. Theres some sort of hustle in any kind of business. It's just business. That's how see hustling as a business.