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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
There was also a glaring hole in the movie, for me... after Angier's "new" Transported Man (Tesla version), Borden sees him "reappear" in the audience almost instantaneously...the next scene is Borden obsessing over the method, because he's so far away so quickly; this sets up the whole big "under-stage" finale later. But Borden would simply conclude that Angier had found a new (and better) double. The AUDIENCE assumes that a more impressive effect must mean a more brilliant method, but no top magician would assume so. He'd just assume that Angier had a cool electric-spark-making box to dress it up.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Jeb Sherrill Inner circle Elsewhere 1161 Posts |
Lobowolf,
Not so. The obvious answer was that Bordon easily saw through Angier's double in the first place and could obviously tell that this time it was no double. That is exactly what perplexed Bordon about the new method. Jeb
I don't believe in reincarnation, but I may have in another life.
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
"Remove that which is impossible, and whatever remains, however unlikely, must be the truth."
-Aurthur Conan Doyle For what it is worth, I like stories with a puzzle to actually have a plausible explanation. |
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BarryFernelius Inner circle Still learning, even though I've made 2537 Posts |
“How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?”
- Sherlock Holmes in The Sign of Four by Arthur Conan Doyle or “It is an old maxim of mine that when you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.” - Sherlock Holmes in The Adventure of the Beryl Coronet by Arthur Conan Doyle or “When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.” - Sherlock Holmes in The Adventure of the Blanched Soldier by Arthur Conan Doyle Take your pick.
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."
-Leonard Bernstein |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-06-04 02:45, Jeb Sherrill wrote: The second time around, he was 20 or 30 feet away in a moderately lit theater. He saw through the first double because he wasn't good enough (and drank). The logical explanation for the effect is that he got a BETTER double (as Michael Caine noted, when the double showed up 15 feet away on the same stage, that's the only way the trick could be done, as Borden knows, since that's how HE does it). Angier disappears, and reappears immediately 50 feet away, but Borden doesn't even ENTERTAIN the idea that it might be a double? What, is Tesla-ex-machina a more reasonable explanation? Just because he can spot a BAD double doesn't mean he can state with certainty that it's NOT a double in the new version. The book, btw, addresses this, by (I believe) having audience members provide Angier with unique items (though, again, Borden would suspect shills). If you're a working magician, especially if you're a working magician 100 years ago, and a guy vanishes offstage and shows up instantaneously 50 feet away, you're going to KNOW it's a double. Even if it doesn't look like one. Even in the 21st century, there's not a working model of the only (Tesla's) alternative explanation. Plus, Borden knows that Angier just isn't that creative.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
I agree with the Holmes quotations. Tesla's solution plays nice in the movies, but it's still "impossible." Borden would deduce that improbable though it be that he can't spot the "new" double, that's what must be going on.
To further the plot (Borden's self-destructive obsesssion), the film needs Borden to think like a layman (more impressive effect = more demanding method), and to get from A to C, it blurbs over what I think is a pretty obvious characterization issue.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Why should fiction be limited to what is scientifically possible? Who made that rule? If you don't like it that way, that's cool, but why make it imperative?
Specifically to the plot of the film (I haven't read the book): the movie begins with the fact that Borden is in jail for having murdered Angier. How in the world can we get around the Tesla plot device to somehow explain the dead Angier who must turn out not to be dead in order to become Lord Colderdale to in turn adopt Borden's daughter? You could rewrite the movie, I suppose, but it would be a major rewrite of the entire plot, because everything in the whole story fits together. You just can't say, "Snip off the Tesla stuff at the end, and you'll have a good story." You will then have an entirely different plot line. That's cool. But the story as it is seems to me to be relatively consistent. Of course, I might be missing something. I'm probably missing something. I'm pretty dumb, or so I've been told. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Stone - if your post is directed at mine, I'm not taking the position that the film should be limited to what's possible; I just mentioned the "impossibility" of what actually happened to contextualize Borden's response. Borden wouldn't be thinking of literally impossible solutions, so he'd assume a double was in play.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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mtpascoe Inner circle 1932 Posts |
My only gripped with the movie is the non-liner approach the director took to tell the story. It confused me to no end. Plus, the main actors looked too much alike. So did the actresses. I got so confused on which character was which. This confusion was compounded by the non-liner story. The jumping back and forth confused me on which character was which.
Then you add the end where the dead Angier becomes Lord Colderdale and it becomes all confusing. This new character jumps in and we don’t know why he is so important and why he has the influence to adopt the daughter. I was not the only one confused. I saw it with my wife. She got so confused, she went to bed. I thought the magic part was good, even though not accurate. Of course there is no prestige, but that is a literary license that is forgivable. We can play liberties with this stuff because the laypeople don’t know the details anyway. I liked the Illusionist better. |
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Jeb Sherrill Inner circle Elsewhere 1161 Posts |
Lobowolf,
In that case, I think you may have missed what actually happened. What exactly Borden thought the secret was, or was not, is not directly addressed (yes, the book was different on many things). It was established fairly well that Borden's observational abilities as a magician were better than average. Broden went back-stage in the first place because he couldn't figure out how the illusion worked since it didn't appear to be another double. Bordon never did deduce that it was some Tesla+type machine (and his brother didn't really care, he only cared that his Borden had been framed for murder). Where did you get the idea that he made some far-stretched, Mulder like leap in logic? Jeb Mtpascoe, If you read the book, you will realize why the movie was made the it was. Trust me, it was only to even come close to reproducing the book which was obviously a very difficult script to translate. The movie made perfect sense to me, but it may depend on the type of movies you are used to seeing. Jeb
I don't believe in reincarnation, but I may have in another life.
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mtpascoe Inner circle 1932 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-06-04 17:06, Jeb Sherrill wrote: When you say Mulder, do you mean the X-Files? I never saw it, so I don't know the reference. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-06-04 17:06, Jeb Sherrill wrote: I didn't get the idea that he made any leap like that. I'm just saying that from the way the second version of The Transported Man was performed, the only "possible" way would have been a double. The final version suffers from the "too perfect" theory. The response would have been "Well, unless he actually teleported, he's using a double, and obviously he didn't actually teleport."
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Or to look at it another way, when Cutter is breaking down BORDEN'S (much less impressive, from an effect standpoint) version, he says that he must be using a double; that's the only way it can be done. And, of course, Cutter is RIGHT; his character is presented as being very knowledgeable about magic. So if the version where the performer goes from one side of the stage to the other must be done with a double, then certainly the version where the performer goes from the stage to the back of the audience, just as quickly, must be done with a double. Even if you have "better than average observational abilities."
Again, when Borden does it with an IDENTICAL TWIN, Cutter knows it's a double, because it has to be. So even if Borden can't tell them apart, there's nothing else it can be (without making a movie and bringing in sci fi elements). And, again, Angier just isn't that creative (and Borden knows it). If someone could figure a way to do The Transported Man as Angier performs it, without a double, (besides Tesla), it wouldn't be Angier; it would be Borden.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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mtpascoe Inner circle 1932 Posts |
It was addressed here that as a magician, Broden should have figured out that there was a double. That may be, but it was Darwin Ortiz that said that magicians are always in search of that perfect trick. The trick with no method. It was this need that led him to hound Tesla for that perfect method. Which was his undoing.
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Or to look at it ANOTHER way...I say I'm going to come to your house and show you a trick...we go into your front yard...20 feet away from you, I walk behind your neighbor's house so you can't see me any more. AS SOON as I disappear from view, your wife says, "Hey look!" and you turn around and see me, or a guy you'd swear in court is me, 30 feet on the other side of you, dressed the same and waving to you. Then the "new me" walks off -- end of trick.
When I call you that night and ask what you thought, are you REALLY going to be wondering how I did it?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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mtpascoe Inner circle 1932 Posts |
Being a magician, I would rack my brain to try to figure how you got a double to one spot to the other. I might not admit that you fooled me even though I would be floored. I would not insult you by asking how you did it, but I would be most perplexed.
Unless your method was too obvious, then all bets are off. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
I am wondering how you know he has a wife.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-06-04 18:22, mtpascoe wrote: THAT'S what I'm talking about. I'd call you, and you'd say, "Man, that guy really looks like you. Where'd you find him?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-06-04 18:24, tommy wrote: LOL I'm branching from teleportation demonstrations into mentalism.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
What did it mean to them to live half a life?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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