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The Mac Inner circle 1982 Posts |
The fact that you experience irritation should tell you that your body is not happy. Building a tolerance against a symptom doesn't mean it becomes safe.eg after a few packs of sigs you dnt cough anymore but it doesn't stop the damage.
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cschuh New user Vancouver, BC, Canada 12 Posts |
I find it a bit ironic that you did not name your sources and are requesting that we name ours. The medical professionals we consulted are not named on the product page or in the product itself. Their role in this production was not to "sign off" on anything, but to provide advice and a professional, medical opinion.
I suppose since you didn’t have someone sign off on what you have posted that now it’s completely invalid, too? I did not mean to be offensive with the water remark. However, it does seem that people are taking things a bit too extreme here. I went to an extreme in one direction and you went to the extreme in another. My apologies for that and I’ll keep my eye on the ball – this should be about Warning and nothing else. Now, when you talked to your friend, here's what you needed to ask. "Is the performance and/or practice of this effect harmful to the body?" That's the only concern. I don't see any evidence that this has happened from your end. This is exactly what we did. We went around and found several sources to contact with that question. From there, we also asked what other health concerns there are and we have it all posted on the product page to inform potential customers. It isn't dangerous for someone under 18 to perform it (naturally we wouldn't want someone who is a child with a developing body to perform it) and it isn't something that if a mistake is made, then you're going to die within minutes. Again, going to the extreme with the conditions of the argument will get us nowhere. The responsibility comes from the user – you have to simply know when enough is enough with it. Just because you want to perform a trick 50 times a night, it doesn’t mean that you should. Self-control and responsibility are required with this trick – no one has been hiding that. If people do not feel that they possess enough of those to use the trick as it was intended, then we’d definitely recommend them skipping over it. The trick is not marketed to those under 18 simply because we feel that it belongs in the hands of responsible adults. That's all. There are way more dangerous things in Swami Mantra - should we be beating down Sam's door with the same message? Small quantities over time build up? Is that speculation? Our medical research involved long term effects, too. The medical professionals we contacted indicated that the risk was negligible long term. Are you indicating otherwise? Yes, all of that information I mentioned is listed right on the product page – in bold letters. As for the irritation and the body telling you that it isn't happy - you're right, macGyver. Each magician must make his/her own decision about this trick being right for them. The bottom line that I find is this. Ellusionist has consulted several medical professionals about the practice and performance of this effect. All of them have indicated that this is not a dangerous thing to do, when done responsibly and properly. The information above is unspecific on the quantity of the inhalations of the items. Our research was specific with the practice/performance of Warning in mind. Many people around the world have tried it and Daniel Garcia has been doing this for some time now. Everyone is still alive and in good health (or as good as they were before they started with Warning). Thanks! Cheers, Chris Schuh Team Ellusionist |
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The Mac Inner circle 1982 Posts |
Ok.as a test I just tried ths now 3 times . Im a non smoker.1.it looks cool. 2. My throat is itchy and my lungs feel a lil sore like how I fèlt 15mins after I tried a cigarete. 3. I have a headache now too. Note these are not pyschosymatic.
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Chris,
I have provided links to every fact I have reprinted. So I have given you my sources. I have also provided the chemical reactions which happen in the body. If you would like to refute that, please do. That does not need someone to sign off on - the chemical reaction is either right or wrong. I have given you their research. If you have information which contradicts the research, offer it. This is not about appeals to authority, it is about scientific process which can be verified and tested. If you have information that specifically contradicts the research on the toxcity of chemicals, offer it. If you have information which contradicts the chemical processes I have reprinted, offer it. Saying, "we talked to someone who said it was ok does neither." I am glad Daniel Garcia is alive and well. But how many years has he been doing this (not how many years he says he has, how many years has he really)? How old is he? Do you really think that is enough "evidence" to say the trick is safe? You know, at one point in history, doctors said cigarette smoking was GOOD for you!!!! So, how much stock should we put in YOUR medical professionals? Sorry you have placed yourself in a position of great liability. You were the only company willing to run with the project, now you will deal with the fallout. There may not be any, but what if this information were leaked to a consumer watchdog group? You think they would let the "warning" in "Warning" be enough? Brad |
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Robert Apodaca Special user 504 Posts |
If this effect is already published in his notes, then I must ask how much are the notes and where can I get them?
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cschuh New user Vancouver, BC, Canada 12 Posts |
Brad,
At no point in your presentation was there any evidence that the amounts described in Warning were harmful to one's overall health. That was the main point I was bringing up in the previous post. No one from Ellusionist is disputing the potential dangers of this effect. Just like everything in your presentation mentioned potential dangers, too. Inhalation may lead to such effects in some individuals at specific quantities. Your research did not say how much needed to be inhaled to start showing the most extreme symptoms on those sheets. That's where we did our medical research - specifically asking if the amount inhaled during the performance would cause serious health issues. Our medical research came back with the answer of "no" with a few conditions (which are posted on the website). We also posted some known effects. Think of this maybe along the lines of the pills you see advertised on TV. Some of them have very serious side effects. However, people can always make the choice - we've warned them of the potential dangers of Warning right on the product page. The amounts inhaled during normal use of Warning is already up there. In any case, we're confident with our medial research and stand by it. Thanks! Cheers, Chris Schuh Team Ellusionist |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-12-04 17:28, cschuh wrote: So, you admit to knowing the effect to be potentially dangerous, you know your demographic, and you still released it. I think you have said everything that needs to be said. Congratulations on your enlightened approach to magical marketing. I wish you well. Brad To everyone, you have the chemical spec sheets. You have the chemical reaction. Be smart. |
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MagicBrent Inner circle 2574 Posts |
Well, I ordered the DVD but not the download. While I am familiar with the "secret", I'm interested in how Daniel G. explains it and I'm hoping it's somewhat different than what I know to be true.
I can appreciate the scholarly banner back and forth. Just as both sides can present arguments to support their side, this won't be resolved. Those will try it will. Those that won't, won't. None of us will know the longterm effects of the trick, I think, because when I'm old and have health problems, who's to say it will be directly from this vs. just old age? It is better to err on the side of caution, though and I'll probably only bring out the "big gun" of Warning when I need it... |
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cschuh New user Vancouver, BC, Canada 12 Posts |
Hi Brad,
Our demographic expands a lot further than those under 18. If that is your perception, then only you can change it. I have interacted with enough of our customers to know that the majority of them are over the age of 18. Thanks! Cheers, Chris Schuh Team Ellusionist |
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Xiqual Inner circle Upper left quadrant 4935 Posts |
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On 2006-12-05 00:05, cschuh wrote: I am 44 years old and I buy from Ellusionist all the time. They are the best in customer service and shipping. If I ever have a problem they handle it right away. Always funny to see the High Prince of "Ethics" come to the forum. Brad, I did read "The Dance" and it is unethical even by your "dancing" around the issue. If anyone wants to know about Brad and his ideas of ethics, just PM me. James
Still with the Chinese circus
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Masonogy1 Loyal user 215 Posts |
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On 2006-12-05 00:05, cschuh wrote: Hmmmmm... I quote Brad on your forums with the health RISKS and you delete the entire thread? I thought this information was usually granted to the potential buyers, I mean it is THEIR health...? I still love E's products, but this one is a bit iffy to me! :S My opinions stands... I'm not willing to risk it... Yet Good luck Mason Roberts |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
James, way to be on topic, buddy. As for ethical issues, James is referring to my attitude about cold reading. What that has to do with saying a trick "should be safe" on an advertisement and "we were aware of the potential dangers" on this site is beyond me. (and if I am mistaken, James, drop me the issue via PM and I will resolve it instantly)
But...I am not here to argue. Only offer hard proof from real scientists and government agencies concerning the stuff you will be putting in your body if you perform this. Phosphorus is a heavy metal. Once it gets inside you... What I have said is either true or false. No one has contradicted any of the evidence. I would love for Ellusionist to post a doctors rebuttal that addresses the chemicals and reports linked to on this thread. Right now, all we have is, "because he said so." This is not about ethics. It is about getting information into the hands of potential buyers - whether the buyer is 14 or 40. And this is why it is important and the "be responsible for yourself" excuse does not hold. We know what is in a cigarette. If we choose to smoke it, at any age, we know we are doing harm to our body. But People don't KNOW what is in a match head. All we have is the statement that "this should not hurt you" from people who could be anyone. Like the old joke goes, "What do you call the guy who graduated last in his class in medical school?"...."Doctor." People, kids and adults, trust Ellusionist. If they put it out, it must be safe, right? But even if they asked good doctors,how do we KNOW it is safe? Were studies done? Over how long a time? Is there anything in the literature which would lead a smart person to conclude it is safe - other than the chemical spec sheets that say it shouldn't be? Who exactly was asked? Did these people know what chemicals went into match heads AND understood the chemical reaction required for the smoke to be formed? (Afterall, a doctor would not normally need to know that.) Why would they think it would be safe to ingest these chemicals when several official documents issued by government agencies say that they are not? Would any of them put their professional opinion on the line? Would a real company, like Mattel, release this in a line of magic products with the amount and type of research done? Would a company such as wal-mart carry this DVD on their shelves? Would the Discovery channel teach this on one of their specials? If I knew these answers, I could maybe believe it was safe OR at least know what it was I was doing to my body. As it stands, I can read on their ad ,"it should be safe" OR I can come here and read what chemicals are used and what they do in my body. I have offered evidence that it may not be safe. While I am not an expert, I have yet to see Chris rebut the evidence (- he has tried to characterize it as irrelevant and non-specific, but that is neither a rebuttal of the information nor is it accurate if you read the documents all the way through.) So, Chris, arguing over anything other than what the chemicals are, what they do, and why your doctors think it is safe in spite of what is written everywhere is pointless - it is misdirection away from the big issue. Talk to us about the chemicals. Talk to us about the chemical reaction. Show me science that contradicts the earlier posts and I will happily concede that everything is fine. But stop blowing so much smoke - we are starting to see your mirrors. |
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dg magic Veteran user Houston , TX. 350 Posts |
WOW... the king of debate is back on yet again ANOTHER Daniel Garcia Thread to cause conflict.
THE REAL TRUTH TOLD - I myself have been performing this for going on 8 years now (yup BRAD that's the truth...not just a LIE as you so put it) and I'm fine, heathy in every way (except for my heart...but that a family medical issue)... when I first started performing this effect, I checked with a number of doctors and they all said the same thing...that normal use is not going to harm you. then when I decided to right up one of my routines using this in Magic Magazine back in 2002 I once again checked with doctors to MAKE SURE THAT I COULD PUBLISH THE ROUTINE FOR THE PUBLIC....once again they said the same thing...its OK. then when I decided to release the DVD through ellusionist...THEY consulted with a number of physicians ASWELL...and the answers came back once again... THE SAME!!! Ive done my research to MAKE SURE that this will not harm anyone.... as far as the warning issues on their website...its just for liability issues....just like the one you have to sign when indoor rock climbing...or indoor skydiving...or anything else that we have all had to sign JUST FOR THE SAKE OF THE COMPANY. For those who are skeptical...thats fine guys, I understand... BUT to BRAD...i think it is funny how every thread that comes up about me, you pop in and start some controversy... GET OVER OUR OWN CONFLICTS...AND JUST LET IT GO BOSS!!! I don't know how many times I have to tell you. Daniel Garcia
-Truth is made up of two things... FACT... and the ability to believe it-
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paisa23 Inner circle 7293 Posts |
Ah OK hold on, I had to sign one of those thingies before I ate a Cluck-u University, I guess they have the hottest wings. I don't know if that is the same thing, but I didn't want to feel left out.
Um I'm not sure what the debate is here. But hey DG the question that has been asked and I am curious about is , is this the same method as your lecture notes or is there something new. By the way loved the Kaos demos. I know its not your effect, but liked your performances allot brother. Other then that, ill be back on later. Have to go Smoke, the wife gave me until the end of the month so have to make the Best/Worst of it.
June 22 2012 9:02 AM baby Usnavi was born!
http://twitter.com/paisa233 http://www.facebook.com/people/Wilder-J-Rua/505202382 http://www.myspace.com/wildrua |
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The Mac Inner circle 1982 Posts |
Well I tried it and it did have adverse affects on me. However Mr Garcia does it and has had no such affect.Perhaps the affects are different from person to person. If you have experimented with this trick post your experiences
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Daniel,
Can you get one of these doctors to make a written statement as to why they think it is safe, on what evidence they base it, and why they would choose to say it is safe in spite of what all the chemical spec sheets say? Would they sign their name to it and take on any liability issues? The representative for Ellusionist has stated that they are aware of potential dangers, yet you say the warning is there only to cover you in case of liability - that it is safe? Which is it? Are there potential dangers or not? And is Ellusionist aware that in spite of warnings and labels they are still open for liability suits? This may be why so many in the magic community passed on releasing it when it was offered to them. If people want to do this trick, they are more than welcome to. I am just interested in finding out why doctors think it is safe, given the information readily found on line that seems to contradict it. Any answers? If not, I will simply let the chemical information speak for itself. If it is not addressed, that will be telling. Best, Brad p.s. how many people smoked all of their life and then, when medical information finally came out saying it was dangerous, said, "ah, I've been smoking since I was 12 and I've never felt better" - right before they ended up in chemo? You're a young man Daniel. Had a long talk with Del Ray about doing dumb things to your body. He dies from emphesema, having never smoked a day in his life. Why? Being around all that smoke in the night clubs. His advice, about any drug/chemical: "You never know what its going to do to you when your my get my age. Stay away from that stuff." But I admit, that is a digression. Let's keep this about the chemicals. The above statement came out of genuine concern, for you, and the others who may be poisoning themselves. |
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Cody J.H. Pace New user Houston 92 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-12-05 03:26, truthteller wrote: Brad, I would like to respond to the evidence you have brought forward. I think the way you have gone about this is irresponsible. Let me explain. I am the owner and operator of a fully licensed and insured commercial and residential pest control company. I have had extensive training and schooling in the handling and usage of chemicals that are deadly. My problem with your findings is that they are not presented in the context of this situation. Let me show you what I mean. Every chemical that is manufactured has an MSDS label that the government requires to be made for it. In my profession this is something we have to know like the back of our hands. For those who are not familiar with the term, MSDS stands for (Material Safety Data Sheet). These inform the user of the dangers associated with the chemical, the potential hazards, methods of clean up, fire extinguishing, body reactions, first aid and other pertinent information. There is a very important section on any MSDS label that is called the LD50. An LDLo value is the lowest amount of a solid, gases, dusts, vapors, mists, liquid material reported to have caused the death of animals or humans. The exposure may be acute or chronic. This is also called the lowest dosage causing death, lowest detected lethal dose, and lethal dose low. The dose may be administered orally (by mouth), injection into various parts of the body (intraperitoneally or intravenously), inhaled or dermally (application to the skin). The value is usually reported along with the administration method. Both LD50 and LDLo values state the animal used in the test. This is important because animal toxicity studies do not necessarily extrapolate (extend) to humans. For example, dioxins (of Love Canal, Times Beach, Sveso and Agent Orange fame) are highly toxic to guinea pigs and ducklings at extremely low levels, but have never been conclusively linked to a single human death even at very high levels of acute (short term) exposure. Typical units for LD50 values are milligrams or grams of material per kilogram of body weight (mg/kg or g/kg, recall that 1 kg = 2.2 pounds). To break this down for you there is an established level that is set which informs the user what the lowest level that has been reported in which an animal or human has died or become ill. These amounts are tested mainly on mice and it is in response to body weight also. Another thing is that often this amount is extremely high. Many times it would require exposure or ingesting extremely large amounts of concentrated chemicals. This is not a likely scenario that a person would drink concentrated chemical. So do I panic when I get chemical on my hands or have some vapor come my way? No. Why? Because knowledge based on correct information that pertains to the entire situation eliminates doubt and worry. I have seen no evidence that you have shown that the miniscule amounts of the forementioned chemicals are dangerous in these amounts. Yes the chemicals themselves are dangerous, but at what levels and amounts. I know you will have something smart to say about this but it is true. Too much sun is deadly. The pollution in Phoenix during the winter can be deadly. Bee stings can be deadly. All these things are deadly but not in every situation. Can WARNING be dangerous? Yes! To whom? To people with allergies to smoke. I have not heard of anyone with an allergy to those chemicals. There are people who can go into anaphylactic shock and die very rapidly from the tiniest bit of peanut dust. Does that mean that peanuts are deadly? To some, yes. What I am trying to get at Brad is that your information is correct, but does it apply in this situation? I do not believe it does. There are many chemicals we ingest daily that are extremely toxic in higher concentrations, but relatively harmless in lower doses. Too much potassium can kill. Is anyone going to eat that many bananas? I doubt it. I have researched the chemicals you listed. The first thing I noticed was the Phosphorus sesquisulfide is used on strike anywhere matches and not match packets. The links you gave refer not to the chemical amounts on matched but on the chemical that is sold in concentrated form for manufacturing and use. You listed Antimony trioxide. (Antimony trioxide is produced from stibnite ores (antimony trisulfide) or as a by-product of lead smelting and production. It is used mainly in fire-retardant formulations for plastics, rubbers, textiles, paper and paints. It is also used as an additive in glass and ceramic products and as a catalyst in the chemical industry. Occupational exposure may occur during mining, processing and smelting of antimony ores, in glass and ceramics production, and during the manufacture and use of products containing antimony trioxide. Antimony trisulfide is used in the production of explosives, pigments, antimony salts and ruby glass. Occupational exposure may occur during these processes and also during the mining, processing and smelting of ores containing antimony trisulfide.) I do not see anything about matches in there. Misinformation is not helpful to anyone. Potassium chlorate is another one you have taken out of context. Oral rat LD50: 1870 mg/kg; Human (unknown route) LDlo: 429 mg/kg. That is an extremely large amount and that is considered taken orally and not in a dissipated smoke form. It is also given as a single dose and not spread out over time. It is also listed as NOT being a carcinogen. Then you bring up at the end White phosphorus. You failed to mention in your copy and paste that it says Acute (short-term) oral exposure to HIGH LEVELS (We are not talking about high concentrated levels with WARNING) of white phosphorus in humans is characterized by three stages: the first stage consists of gastrointestinal effects; the second stage is symptom-free and lasts about two days; the third stage consists of a rapid decline in condition with gastrointestinal effects, plus severe effects on the kidneys, liver, cardiovascular system, and central nervous system (CNS).This is the main thing people need to be worried about - Inhalation exposure has resulted in respiratory tract irritation and coughing in humans. Is that a surprise? Smoke can irritate your respitory tract. Come on, let’s not be naive. This effect will not be great for those with allergies and asthma. That is stated on the product page. As for your facts you are doing a disservice to others by not presenting the whole picture and using scare tactics to further your own agenda you have with Daniel and Ellusionist. I did not type this in defense of Ellusionist. I did it as I battle people like yourself daily that misinform the public and create ignorance in others by presenting the truth with your own spin on it without taking the situation into account. Better stay away from Bananas Brad! Cody
Arachibutyrophobia- Fear of peanut Butter sticking to the roof of your mouth.
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Markymark Inner circle 1686 Posts |
Well Cody JH Pace you have scared me off making a purchase of 'Warning'!
''In memory of a once fluid man,crammed and distorted by the classical mess'' -Bruce Lee
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Cody J.H. Pace New user Houston 92 Posts |
That is a pity as you do not understand the info.
Cody
Arachibutyrophobia- Fear of peanut Butter sticking to the roof of your mouth.
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
No Bananas here Cody. I just believe that saying something is "safe" and being honest about what might be happening are two different things. As to your accusation of misinformation, please note that I gave links to every document so people could see the facts for themselves. If, upon viewing those facts, you choose to believe it is safe - go for it. This is different than offering up an unsubstantiated remark such as "medical professionals say it is safe." I find it telling that Ellusionist pulled the post someone made on their forum with the links to the chemical spec sheets. If they want people to be responsible for themselves, and make an informed decision, they should not do things that hinder that process.
As to the tolerance levels, you are right. We do not know what long term effects small doses can do. And while some of the substances have shown to be dangerous and carcinogenic in animals does not mean that it causes the same conclusively in humans - but it does show that there is risk. (And I never claimed - as far as I am aware, that any of these were carcinogenic in humans BECAUSE one of the studies said the decision was inconclusive. I believe one test group said it did, another it didn't - so the overall conclusion was inconclusive.) So, my point Cody, is that saying outright that there is risk and informing the customer is different than telling them "it's safe." (The last two words come directly from Garcia's notes.) Let's face it. we have all rubbed rubber cement on our hands and lived to tell the story. But that does not mean it is irresponsible for the makers to put a real warning telling you not to do so on the label. Would these companies be in business long if they wrote "go ahead, it's safe" on the label? There is a reason it does not say that. There is a reason almost every garage and elevator in California has a sign saying that there are chemicals in the product/air which are known to cause damage. Does that stop us from riding and parking? Of course not. But we are informed. They are not saying "it's safe." Most people don't know what they are dealing with! That's the issue. Thank you for making your post. You, being tooled in chemicals, have part of the background the doctors are missing. Of course, the ideal situation is to hear from someone who understands both the chemicals and their reactions AS WELL as the effects on the body. (Remember, a lot of chemists handled mercury daily because they thought it was safe - chemically. It was the doctors that taught them about mercury posioning!) I do not think doctors understand, neccessarily, the chemicals or the effects exposure over a long time will have. In fact, NONE OF US DO! So, the more information we have, and the more people we can attribute it to to put it into context, the better. Thank you for contributing to the discussion. (In closing, I have a question for Danny. This may be splitting hairs, but you said you were doing this for 8 years. That would be 1998. And in your notes you said you learned it while on tour from Brian Brushwood and he had learned it in Japan. Is that right? Was this a lecture tour? Torn did not come out until 2002 - you had it at the second LVMI. [It would have been after Doumergue's Ripped and Restored came out - that was 2001, right?] That was your first product, right? Had you been lecturing for three years before then? Just curious) |
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