espmagic,
This style of holdout is totally different than the typical 'gamblers holdout'.. It is more suited for stand-up close up/platform rather than sit down close up...

There are many effects possible that cannot be done with sleight of hand or, at least, certainly not as cleanly.

I used one regularly back in the late 80's. After ordering the Ed Mishell/Jack Miller model along with the book from Tannens. The books gives good basic information (though somewhat poorly written).

I got pretty good with it. It doesn't take long to develope this skill if you are used to pracitcing making your actions look natural.

About 2 months ago, when I became aware of the F/K holdout and the controversy about it's price and performance restrictions, I got inspired to see if I could get around the usual "Problems" hindering it's user friendliness.

I felt the same way after overcoming these problems with simplicity - "I have been jacking around with this rather than making this thing really work for me, with less hassle."

I am happy to say I have met all the criteria mentioned in Mr. Kohler's website. (I should say with the help of my step-son..lol) But, no, mine does not use space age material, but yes, it works great, is practical for stand-up/platform when wearing a jacket. AND, costs only a few dollars to make.

I have absolutely no doubt of Mr. Fitch's expertise on using one and no doubt as to the quality purported. It still seems to me at $1,800 as 'over the top' and perhaps some "overkill" given the performance restrictions even though you get first class training and routines with expert teaching on several CDs.

I know the attachments will be first-class quality/custom made. But what more would you want a holdout to handle other than balls, silks, cards, coins, or any other small objects? These attachments are already out there or you can EASILY fashion your own.

It just seems more along the lines of a high priced collector's item.

Just my opinion, I certainly don't mean to offend anyone.

Has this been released yet?

Jim Riser is also going to release a holdout later this year. While I'm his partner on the Micro Chop Cups, he hasn't shared much info with me on his particular holdout. But, knowing his craftsmanship, I'm sure it will be great.

Dennis Loomis
http://www.loomismagic.com

Has anyone heard if the Kohler Holdout has been released? If not, does anyone know the status? How are the DVDs coming along? Are any of the units completed?

Carl

I've seen both Fitch and Kohler use the holdout to produce magic that looks like trick photography.

Saying that spending $1800 on the F/K holdout is "over the top even though you get first class training and routines with expert teaching on several CDs" is like saying, "So Mrs. Lincoln, besides that, how'd you like the play?" It misses the point.

$1800 for an exquisitely made device that comes with instruction reflecting over 50 years of real-world use by two top performers seems underpriced to me. I realize that the target market is the professional magician who will use it in performances that generate income.

Regarding this being a "collector's item," nothing could be further from the truth. This is a "worker's item."

Of course this is just my opinion and nobody has to agree, but my opinion's based on me personally witnessing the device in action and my appreciation of the value vs. simply the cost of this.

Regards, Larry D.

Last I heard, Bob was still working on DVDs.

If they are out, maybe we will get a review soon from a user.

I know the DVDs aren't completed (but will be very soon) so I doubt anyone has the finished product yet.

I just noticed that the banner ad here at the Café for the holdout system says "now shipping". So maybe someone who actually gets to use the system will post a review of the full package soon.

Anyone...?

The holdout is for those people who hold their magic to a very high standard. If you are one of those people who says, "It gets by" or "Laypeople won't notice that," then you probably won't benefit from the holdout.

However, if your goal is to recreate what magic could look like if it were real, and refuse to accept anything less, then the holdout is one tool which might help you achieve that goal.

Is it a panacea? Of course not.

Can you do "killer holdout tricks" with it, definitely.

But the real value comes not from being able to steal another person's act (Nash, Ortiz, et al) but to raise the quality of your own magic just that much higher.

Is you magic worth $1800 to improve? Well, I guess that depends on your magic and how important it is to you.

Truthteller, well said.

Replace "magic" with the words "children's education" and you've got one of the pet phrases of the encyclopedia salesmen of old.

I find arguments of this type to be a little bit unfair and at worst, utterly suspicious. Seems to me folks like John Ramsey (who actually played up the thriftiness of his props and tools!) would disagree with the dictum that the amount of money spent in any way dictates how important magic is to you and how good you are at magic. I personally think it is utterly irrelevant.

On a personal note, I have recently acquired the Romero Holdout. To me, it offers a perfect solution—reasonably priced and offering an incredibly diverse array of possible applications, it is everything I expected and more from a holdout. Will it chop my onions and julienne my potatoes? No. Is it a perfectly workable and reasonably priced item? Without a doubt.

Just as a disclaimer—I have no relationship of arrangement, of any form, with Antonio Romero other than that of buyer and manufacturer.

Regardless of how you wish to impune my argument, the fact remains that we are purchasing a tool and that this tool is designed to improve the effectiveness of one's magic. For many people, this tool would be wasted for MANY reasons. However, I can say wholeheartedly that to me, my magic is important and $1800 is a small sum to pay in order to enable me to move my magic one step closer to the ideal vision I have for it. Sadly, many magicians do not even have a vision.

As for Ramsey, I would contend that to him money was not the measure of one's interest or skill in magic, but that INVESTMENT was. Whether it is an investment of time, energy, intellect, or money that fact remains that to excel in magic it requires an investment.

I hope your holdout works for you. It will NOT work for me. I have invested my time and evaluated both products and am sure of this. For those of us whose magical needs are best solved by the FK system, then allow us to make this investment and grow in our art. No need for sour grapes or comparing the ideas of those who support the FK system with encyclopedic hucksters of old.

For some this will not be the right tool in which to invest, and for many no amount of money thrown at their magic will do any good for they are unwilling to invest in time and energy.

For some, the FK holdout is exactly what we require in order to make manifest our magical ideals. For us, the monetary investment will prove sound. For others, for many reason, it will not. But each of us has to ask ourselves if the investment will reap its proper return for us? Only we can answer that, not Chris S nor any other FK holdout detractors.

If you can point out where I said the F/K system was not worth the money, then I will rightfully take my place as a "FK holdout detractor". I made no such comment.

My issue was solely with your usage of the idea that a person's magic can be improved by an item that is much more expensive than the alternatives. Please note that I made no quarrel against those who endorse the F/K system, despite what you suggest—again I refer to my original message. You have since sharpened your standpoint to encompass a broader definition of "investment", and I heartily agree with your points. I could not agree more.

My criticism of the rather simplistic association between quality of magic and money expended stands. It was an oversimplification in the hands of the encyclopedia salesmen and so it is in any other context. I will say, however, that I am not suggesting you to have any vested interest in the sale of F/K systems. Should you have interpreted it this way, then I sincerely apologize.

My view is that no amount of money and no product IN AND OF ITSELF will make anyone a good magician.

On the other hand, nobody will ever become a good magician without making investments as others have stated (in terms of energy, practice, thought, character development, and props which can run the gamut from a regular deck of cards or a few half dollars to something exotic).

There are magicians whose only investment in props will involve buying regular decks of cards, and there's nothing wrong with that FOR THEM but there is something wrong with that for me. Why? Because there are card effects I wish to perform that require gimmicks and that cannot be performed as effectively through use of sleight of hand alone in my view (many times a combination of sleights and gimmicks is the answer for me).

There are magicians whose only investment in props will involve regular coins, but again, that's not the answer for me.

A holdout is a tool that will open doors to perform certain effects more magically than through other methods in my view, that is to say, it will enhance the effects and make a dramatic difference.

Is the FK Holdout the only holdout answer? Of course not, but it may be the best answer for some and for those magicians an $1800 investment makes sense. What some people seem to be missing, though, is that this particular holdout comes with exhaustive instruction reflecting many years of professional performing experience by top performers, which I think is where the true value lies. Buying a different holdout without very good instruction may not only be a waste of money (albeit a smaller amount of money) but a waste of valuable time for the purchaser who may have to reinvent the wheel.

Is the Romero holdout as versatile and does it come with exhaustive instruction? I haven't seen it so I can't be a judge of that, but I have seen the FK holdout and know what doors it can open. Is anyone out there intimately familiar with both?

Larry D.

Yeah Lee, that was fun.

In answer to your question, I believe the holdouts are being shipped very, VERY soon. As in within a week or so, if not earlier.

And yes, we are going around in circles. It seems as if there are some who are wanting to always spin a degree of negativity around the FK system either directly or indirectly with reference to allegedly "equally good but cheaper" items. And don't even get me started about the lease. There are a lot of sour grapes fermenting as a result of that idea.

Those of us who fall into the defender camp, I think, do this because we either value the work the two Bob's have put into the device and wish to make sure they get full credit and glory for their years of innovation OR we like reminding ourselves that this is a great investment. Yes, I know in my heart it is, but large investments to many come only after reflection, and we need to remind ourselves that our decisions are right for us in spite of how others may wish to paint the situation.

Finally, I know the holdout and what it can do. Part of me hates the fact I feel the urge to come on and praise it. Truthfully, I don't want other people to get it. I would rather keep it all for myself. But my admiration for the work of both Kohler and Fitch prevent me from holding back.

It's shipping now. That is what the banner ad says right on the Café main forum page. That is why I asked if anyone got it and is going to review it.

That was funny, though I must ask, sacks of what?

Sacks of ***** (shims?).

First, I must say that everyone has some really valid points and concerns about this huge release.

Last I heard (Sunday 12th) the systems were being boxed up and ready to go either Monday or Tuesday.

After seeing Bob work in person and purchasing some of his other effects I have no regrets in spending the $1800 on this item if you are a serious performer.

Bob has been nothing but great to a nobody magician like me over the last year or so. I have talked to him many times and to see him so excited about this makes me wonder why he even bothers—other than to take credit for some serious advances in a difficult-to-use utility he has put decades of work into.

The only people who should be talking about this before release are those people who were lucky enough to see it at LVMI or SAM. Many of those people will not be talking about it at all, but blowing away a lot of other well informed magicians with a big grin on their face.

We're lucky to have him release it. I will be curious to see the buzz this thing creates when it hits. Some great coverage will be out via publication, but I'm not so sure if the cat is out of the bag yet, but just wait and see.

Best Regards,
Paul h.

I have waited this product for a year but still not place an order on it because his coins attachment has not been released yet, as I work on coins this really important to me. I heard that there will be a few attachments comes with this set. Anyone who received it, please kindly tell me whether I can use it with coins now. Or I need to wait for the coin attachment.

Delivery yet?? Anyone received this holdout please kindly post a review. I only want to know whether it is easy to wear on and take off, easily changing between suits...

I really needed some advice before I put down my $1800.

Anyone knows about the exact delivery date? I hope not need another long waiting...