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Scott F. Guinn
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Inner circle
"Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G"
6581 Posts

Profile of Scott F. Guinn
Sorry, meant to type in Felson--musta been in a rush. Gianni is exactly correct.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
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Mark Ennis
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Raleigh, NC
1030 Posts

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Actually Minnesota Fats stole his moniker from the Hustler. It was Eddie Felson, who just recently passed away I believe in October.


My opinion is not to make it a goal to fool magicians. You may be surprised to know that I fooled 3 working mentalists at the same time using Si Stebbins.

I also fooled a couple of working magicians at a performance about 8 years ago when I gave the deck away they swore must have been gaffed. The reason they were fooled was because I switched decks.

My point is, there is no real formula to fool magicians. You should focus on improving your magic and focus on learning how to present it and you will be amazed at the number of magicians you will catch along the way.
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San Pedro, CA
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Profile of aaronmagic
I agree with everyone elso (thestrollingmagician). Its not like you are going to just fool magicians and thats it. If so, then why do magic? Just to feel good about yourself because you can execute a trick that no other magician can? If so, then thats pretty sad.
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Dayton Ohio/USA
69 Posts

Profile of thelastdoctor
On 2002-01-30 23:26, themagicl wrote:
I'm curious, Which would you rather do, fool magicians or impress them? They are not the same.
One is for children. Do you know which?


Well said Larry! Thanks

My two cents... we have a great bunch of guys in our club, only one is semi-pro. I just want to learn to make MY magic better, more entertaining. The effects that "fool" me are wrapped up in a good presentation. If I see an effect that I know and it still "fools" me, I ask why did I miss the double cut at that point? Or whatever the "move".

Often it was THERE but I got caught up in the presentation just like a lay person would. That's what I want.

Good luck on that Holy Grail quest, remember how that ended?

Thanks again.

The Last Doctor
The Last Doctor

I’m always looking for the perfect pint or sugar free Jelly Babies...
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162 Posts

Profile of MattSedlak
There is nothing wrong with wanting to fool/impress other magicians in my opinion. Some people do not want to perform magic for laymen, or perform mostly for magicians (Rosenthal, Krenzel, etc.) and if that is there choice, so be it. If your going to be in magic, you better love it. If what you love is fooing magicians then do that. While I agree that if you intend to perform for a lay audience, you need to work on presentation, it's not the same for magicians. Granted you still need a decent presentation but it does not need to be as important. If all you are going to do is perform for magicians, then just have fun, fool them, and move on. However, I sincerely doubt someone from the forum is going to tell you where to go find "underground" material. The best way to learn it is to get good at some stuff, create your own "underground" stuff and trade. Thats what "session moves" are for. So, in sum, if you are going to perform for laymen, build a strong repertoire and develop great presentations. If you are going to perform for magicians only, work on the technical side more and develop at least a decent presentation. Because you will be using it in front of magicians only, some things will work, some won't, while they would go over great for laymen.
Robert LAMAR
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Lakeside, Nova Scotia (Canada)
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Profile of Robert LAMAR
On 2002-04-14 20:42, MattSedlak wrote:
So, in sum, if you are going to perform for laymen, build a strong repertoire and develop great presentations. If you are going to perform for magicians only, work on the technical side more and develop at least a decent presentation.

An excellent set of books that can help one to develop techniques that can dramatically improve one's performance of magic - for both magician's and laypeople, alike - are Jon Racherbaumer's, "Card Finesse" and "Card Finesse II." I have learned and applied more subtle pieces of 'business' to my card work from these two books, then from any other source.

I will quote from Racherbaumer's Foreword to "Card Finesse." I think it aptly describes what should be the goal of all who practice the art of magic, be it for other magician's, or the public at large:

"Almost everyone has heard of the Vernon Touch. It has been lauded by countless respected names in magic. What is the Vernon Touch? In brief, it is nothing more than fastidious ATTENTION TO DETAILS. Great magicians like Vernon and Marlo are detailists; they are artists who strive for perfection. This is why Vernon has frequently quoted Michelangelo's aphorism: 'Perfection consists of trifles, but perfection is no trifle.'"

It is attention to these 'trifles,' more so then learning the latest esoteric hardcore move, that can really set one's magic apart from the rest. Attention to detail, and striving to, in Vernon's words, "Be Natural," is what will make one, not only a magician's magician, but a magician that laypeople will enjoy watching.

Our goal should be to make it look like we are doing nothing. It is when we reach this plateau that magician's are generally fooled, because there was nothing to 'see' - in other words, our performance was absent of any 'tell' or indication that a 'move' was performed. The 'inner workings' were invisible - totally and completely.

As Martin A. Nash would say - albeit, tongue in cheek - in his performances: "People say I do nothing, but I do it rather well!" This should be what we ALL strive for.
With YOU in mind...Robert LAMAR

The power of thought is the MAGIC of the MIND." - Byron

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Garrett Nelson
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644 Posts

Profile of Garrett Nelson
I just read the post about why you never see performances by Marlo. I am lucky enough to know a fellow who sat with him, and get to hear many Marlo stories. Marlo just didn't like performing for people. He loved creating things, and showing them to a small group of magicians, but that is about it.

Later on in his life he came out of his proverbial shell a little (that is why you see more video of him when he was older). A great example is 35 years after, which was filmed by a good man here in Champaign named Dale Farris. Marlo would never have gotten up like that when he was younger, it just wasn't something he liked to do.

Now, as for fooling magicians...
I always give the advice to look deep into Greater Magic if you have access to it. That, or look at Don England's work. It is little known (why, I have no idea) and is completely killer.

And for everyone that rags on fooling magicians...Not everyone is a performer. Some people do magic for the sole purpose of magic. Many people. And what is wrong with that? Go to any convention of pretty much anything and you will see that many people have turned inward; that is they cater to the others in their profession, not outside of it. If I look at a basket weaveing conovention, $1000 says I am no more impressed by the top of the line products than the other upper level ones....but a basket weaver would be.

In fact, I am a performer, but I still take time form my perfromance material to work on a few things to fool magic buddies.

I just think working on foolers is under rated.
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Profile of strollingmagician
Well said Garrett!! That's just what I mean.

Are you really going to show the guys at the next magic convention your new move for Ambitious card? No, You are going to show them something hard core!!

Tony Picasso once told me when you entertain Laymen,you are working a job.When you are sitting around with the guys it's an art!

I love the art! I don't know about you,but i would kill myself if all i did was sponge balls,scotch&soda,Stripper decks,etc.I would go mad!!!!
Lonnie Dilan
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Canyon Country, California
823 Posts

Profile of Lonnie Dilan
Hey Strolling,

man that last line is exactly how I feel. Tony is a great guy.

There is nothing better than sitting around with your magic buddies and frying thier brains.

If your in the neighborhood you should drop by my house in May, we are having Bill Goodwin lecture for us. I'm sure you will like the lecture.

email me for details
Dorian Rhodell
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Inner circle
San Francisco, CA.
1629 Posts

Profile of Dorian Rhodell
Bill who? Oh I heard he's great with the sponge bunnies and what not! Can I come too Lonnie, huh? Can I? Can I?

Take care,

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