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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
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On 2006-12-20 12:18, SpellbinderEntertainment wrote: The same thing can be said about the "artistic side" of magic. I have seen magicians put together an "artistic show." And then let it fall by the wayside because they did not consider how hard it was going to be to lug that stuff around and set it up before a show. To be an artist to be a financial success what is the goal? What I would like to see is a balance between the two. Part of doing it is to rediscover what you already do and it is to me a process of re-mastering what I already use. Reinventing my show and myself as I learn and grow. But this takes a long time and many magicians today want the complete effect - the complete DVD with all the bits of business that can take a lifetime to learn if one takes the old long way of doing things. And that is by doing it over time and taking time to hone the work. And a continuous routine of doing the homework, trial in front of the audience, and then take out what doesn't work and try again with what did work - and add some more ideas and try again. In my opinion most working magician do this and their shows are a work in progress because as much as we would like it that way - we can't start at the top. In my own opinion a good balance between art, entertainment and business could be a good mix as long as the client and the audience is pleased with the production. Just some thoughts.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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SpellbinderEntertainment Inner circle West Coast 3519 Posts |
Some great DVDs have come out in the last year that have been bashed to death…
because they left the final presentations or full performances for the buyer to figure out . They gave tons of amazing information, but did not deliver everything on a plate tied with a bow. Cheers to these DVD creators, even though they've been vilified for the DVD's style, they are championing creativity! Yes Bish, part of my professional path is to successfully blend art and business while packing small, no cake-walk but unerringly interesting, challenging, and fun! Magically, Walt |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
The craft of an entertainer is to reliably entertain their audiences.
The craft of a magician is to offer entertainment in the form of simulated magic. Art however is something ... else. When the work (or body of work) extends the craft in ways that offer novel forms of meaningful expression we get into the realm of Art. It's not the open door but the act of opening the previously unseen door.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
SpellbinderEntertainment wrote:
Quote:
Magic is an Art! There has been a lot of discussion of magic as art here. I think people burnt out discussing it at one point there were so many topics about it. Maskelyne wrote of magic as art in Our Magic, and he made many of the criticisms and proposed some of the solutions you have written. It's been an ongoing issue a long time. Unlike a lot of people who just complain about the way things are, you actually state what must be done in the first post! And, while one might nitpick about the fine points, I don't think anyone would fundamentally disagree with what you express. So I think this is one of the best, "magic as art" topics ever. There is an interesting argument that Whit Haydn has made that beginners should not necessarily be original, but I expect you are referring to working professionals. Here are the topics with the word "art" in the title that are in this forum, i.e. "Food for thought." I removed topics about, "Black art" or topics with "Art of Astonishment," etc. Many of these are really off topic here. I read them all long ago, I don't want to read them all again! Some were interesting. I know that at least a half dozen of these topics are similar to this topic. Magic: is it an art or is it show biz? The business of creating magic vs. the art of magic Is Magic a Circus Art? It is not! (off topic here, but I left it) Art History If we care about the Art of magic... Magic As an Art, And What we're Up Against Ignorance to Magic as an art Passion for the art... The one thing you cannot be without! High Art Is Magic Art? Magic as an art??? ART workshop Civil War Era - Greater respect for the art; what happened? Mastering The Art Is magic an art? Achieving art in magic Advancement of the Art of Magic Magic as a performance art Is Magic An Art? (Revisited) Destruction of an art Magic as Art Definitions of Terms related to the Art of Magic Magic as an Art Form Art and Craft... Is magic an art form? The Art of Magic Part 1 The Art of Magic Part 2 The Art of Magic Part 3
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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qichi Regular user Los Angeles, CA 123 Posts |
Hilarious. =)
A big internet pat on the back for you all!
"There is no art: things are made for use." Antonin Artaud
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SpellbinderEntertainment Inner circle West Coast 3519 Posts |
Thanks for the digging Bill!
I can see the point Whit made, it can be easier to learn doing "paint by number" but when you get some technique down, it's time to paint your own masterpiece, in your own style, colors, and subject (to use that metaphor). I'm glad there is continuing discussion on this topic and thread, it means that magic is not a dying art, OR that we have a lot of excess hot air <grin>. Magically, Walt |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
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On 2006-12-20 14:30, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Here is the way I look at things... The "business" of an entertainer is to reliably entertain their audiences. The "business" of a magician is to offer entertainment in the form of magic as a science with sorcery suggested in the performance. Art however is something ... else. Because "Magic Happens" in the "mind" of the audience and not on the stage magic (to me) "is a happening." And that to me is to honestly express "myself" through the performance and give the audience "a happening" or something that they enjoy and are entertained by and remember the longest day they live.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-12-30 13:31, bishthemagish wrote:...The "business" of a magician is to offer entertainment in the form of magic ... if I may offer a less convoluted ending to that sentence and suggest "magic as simulated sorcery." This would make the sentence read: The business of a magician is to offer entertainment in the form of magic as simulated sorcery. And I can wholly agree with that. As to science ... let's leave that to scientists. As to art... let's leave that to artists. Not many of us will want to put in the long long hours and years of effort to achieve bonefides (qualifications) in either art or science.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-12-30 13:31, bishthemagish wrote:...The "business" of a magician is to offer entertainment in the form of magic ... Quote:
On 2006-12-30 19:05, Jonathan Townsend wrote: That is fine. Quote:
On 2006-12-30 19:05, Jonathan Townsend wrote: The science of magic is the technology of moves and ideas, the science of theater and the frame that we perform magic in. Without the science we can't do magic because it is the foundation on which the illusion of magic is built in my opinion. The science of magic to me is also the "craft" of magic and that is the building of or the putting together a magic routine or the building of a magic prop. Most magicians today buy magic - nothing wrong with that. I build things and continue to build them and get the prop and make it work my way and often things turn out a little different. Within the science of magic is the methods and techniques in my own opinion. Quote:
On 2006-12-30 19:05, Jonathan Townsend wrote: I would say lets "GIVE" the "art" to the audience because it is within the art in my opinion - that is when the suggestion of sorcery and magic "happens" and the audience experiences magic in their own mind - for a moment. When the audience "has that experience" to me that is when magic becomes "art." At least that is the way I look at it and that is my opinion and - just a few thoughts!
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Alex Linian Inner circle Peru 1277 Posts |
What does "Art" mean?
Check out SKYCAP from Paul Harris Presents!- "A fine trick from the dynamic foursome..."
Jared Brandon Kopf, Magic Magazine PUNCTURE 2.0 - "Jaw-dropping amazing... You also get the absolute best teaching DVD I have ever seen" - Genii Magazine SLEIGHT OF HAND that looks like Magic. --- Alex Linian | Instagram |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
To answer your question Alex Linian is a hard one because most people may say "all art" is subjective. All art is not "liked." All art is not "appreciated." Some is and some isn’t so to speak.
But to try to give you my point of view as to what does art mean in magic? It is a perspective (point of view) presented by the performing artist as an entertainment to be experienced by the audience. There is most likely more to it than that because art is subjective and everyone has there own opinion about what "art" is or isn't." But this is my opinion and thoughts about it.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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SpellbinderEntertainment Inner circle West Coast 3519 Posts |
Jonathan wrote:
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Not many of us will want to put in the long long hours Why not Jonathan? I thought this was a place were magicians could be dedicated, to putting in long, long hours, and years, and years of effort, into bringing their magic to a high, high level? If we’re happy with mediocre, and ok, and close-enough, why bother with magic? Why bother doing anything half-way, or less than the very best we can strive to? For my money, if I can’t be a magical-artist, I’ll sure keep sweating away, and even die trying, or else just do stamp collecting and watch tv. Two-more cents, Walt |
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evolve629 Inner circle A stack of 3838 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-12-31 12:13, Alex Linian wrote: I think there are 28,055 meanings of "Art" by our 28,055 registered members
One hundred percent of the shots you don't take don't go in - Wayne Gretzky
My favorite part is putting the gaffs in the spectators hands...it gives you that warm fuzzy feeling inside! - Bob Kohler |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Walt,
learning science means learning to distinguish between what we can measure and what we might simply wish were somehow true. learning art means learning to express one's inner sensibilities in ways which produce works which capture experience in a way others can later explore for themselves. Both are very disciplined areas to explore. There are no shortcuts beyond getting the basics down before venturing into the unknown so what you bring back will be meaningful to others. At least in our little craft we can offer safe and time tested niceties without concerns that our audiences will critique the works as novel art or as findings from carefully designed experiments. It's safe being tricky. Add your personal touch and a smile and you can get by very nicely just doing a few tricks. But to those who truly wish to study the arts and sciences... the boundaries of the knowable and expressible await you.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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SpellbinderEntertainment Inner circle West Coast 3519 Posts |
Happy New Year Jonathan! You wrote about art:
>Both are very disciplined areas to explore. >There are no shortcuts beyond >getting the basics down >before venturing into the unknown >so what you bring back will be >meaningful to others. Exactly! And it may have taken the first several decades of my life, to learn that lesson thoroughly. And now the past few decades of my life to work with that always at my shoulder. However, in the ideal, I believe your statement above, could be a Credo for magic and magicians. As it certainly is a Credo for me and my magic. I don't see why just because it's “magic”, the possibility of a Craft transforming into Art, should be any less, than with any other discipline (and they do call the Arts "Disciplines" for good reason) Please don't discount those in this business who strive for the stars! You wrote as well: >At least in our little craft >we can offer safe and time tested niceties >without concerns that our audiences >will critique the works as novel art The poet Edna St. Vincent Millay penned: "Safe upon the solid rock the ugly houses stand: Come see my shining palace built upon the sand!" As a Magician… As an Artist… I hope never to be "safe" upon that solid rock, but build Palaces for my audiences, even if I can only work with something as transient as sand.... My thoughts, early 2007 Walt |
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MR2Guy Regular user Nashville 179 Posts |
Here are some edited excerpts from the introduction of Darwin Ortiz's new book "Designing Miracles".
(Creative individuals probably) "realize that pursuit of art is futile without first achieving a complete mastery of craft. Every endeavor that aspires to being an art form is also a craft. You can't create art without first mastering the tools and techniques of your art form, which is exactly what craft is all about." "This raises the question: where does the craft lie in magic? On the rare occasions when magicians address this question, they usually focus on acting skills or storytelling skills. But acting and storytelling are art forms in their own right. Magic may borrow from these areas but, if it doesn't have anything to offer that's unique to magic, it's hard to justify its existence, let alone its claim to art." "Filmmakers don't talk about the craft of filmmaking by telling you to go study live theatre. Indeed, the best proof that film is an art form is that it has its own elements of craft distinct from the legitimate stage or any other art form. The essence of the craft of filmmaking is not the elements that film has in common with live theatre, but the elements that set it apart from live theatre. We can thus frame my original question slightly differently. What craft elements does magic have distinct from other forms of theatre?" "..... here is my best answer. The craft of magic consists of three elements. The first is the technology for magical methods. Magic is more technology-dependent that most art forms because the first and fundamental step in magic is to deceive. As magicians we must achieve a variety of things unsuspected. Technology in the form of sleights, gaffs, and psychological ploys offers us the means to do so. These are the building blocks of a magic effect......" "At the other end of the process is the second element: showmanship. This consists of the spectrum of techniques for investing a performance with dramatic, emotional, and magical power........" "In between these two lies the third and most under-explored element of magical craft: effect design. If sleights, gaffs, and other secret methods are the building blocks, you still need a blueprint to build from. If showmanship is about presentation, you first need something worth presenting. That something is certainly not sleights and gaffs. It's something that utilizes sleights and gaffs but is more than the sum of those parts. This is the realm of effect design. It stands squarely in the center of the magical process, between the raw material of double lifts and retention vanishes and the final product of a moving and memorable performance."
Question every rule.
There are no absolutes. |
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karbonkid Special user 951 Posts |
Thank you for posting that.
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-01-10 07:29, MR2Guy wrote: Not hard at all in my opinion. As I mentioned above art is a perspective or a point of view. One of the interesting things about art is that some think that art should be complicated in order to be important and have deep meaning. Art can be simple and exist for it's own sake. Magic can be as simple "artistically" as a happening of magic. Nothing there and then an appearance of something. A happening of magic. A large Bowling ball came out of that small suitcase. The surprise and it not making any sense is part of the surprise and is part of the happening of magic! The Kuma Tubes after tubes are shown empty a large load of silks are produced and a bowl filled with rice. And then the bowl doesn't fit back in the tubes that it was magically produced out of. A surprise happening of magic! Art can be simple and that can reach a larger audience. Just a few thoughts.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
I'm going to have to pick up Darwin's book to look at his argument.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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SpellbinderEntertainment Inner circle West Coast 3519 Posts |
On 2007-01-10 07:29, MR2Guy wrote:
Magic may borrow from these areas but, if it doesn't have anything to offer that's unique to magic, it's hard to justify its existence, let alone its claim to art." -------------------------------------------------------------- Shakespeare in Hamlet, Act II, Scene ii says: "To hold, as 'twere, the mirror up to nature; to show virtue her own feature…” This is what theatre, and art, and magic can do, Darwin aside. Hold up a mirror to the audience, not reality, but more than reality. And that is of value. Walt |
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