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Robert Apodaca
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I am currently learning the Aronson stack. I've read that Mnemonica is the "encyclopedia of MD effects".

Well is the book worth the money (it's 60$!) if you learned a stack different than Mnemonica?

How many tricks are stack dependent vs. Stack independent?
Jefferson
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Most of the effects are stack independent. Another bonus is that a lot of the effects don't mess with the order of the cards, which is a huge plus.

If you plan on using a memorized deck, then Mnemonica is worth the money. I know that sounds obvious, but I thinks it's a question that deserved consideration.
thoughtsexplorer
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...and BTW: it is so difficult to count the effects. some given small ideas are already great effects.
Robert Apodaca
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Another quick question.

Out of all the effects in the book, how many would you say you actually use?

Also is it worth it for me to buy Mneumonica, then say rather a book by Aronson himself. This is a lot of money and I just have to way my options correctly.
Mago Gregorio
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Mnemonica is a real encyclopedia about Mem deck, a real must have and you'll surely find at least 10 effects and lot of ideas regarding Mem deck. The patter are also very interesting. You should not regert it as it is not only a book describing effects but also techniques, and with J Tamariz mind !
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mrehula
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It's true that Mnemonica is a must for mem deck work. However, because it's so comprehensive, you might want to work through an Aronson book so you're not overwhelmed. His Try the Impossible is a terrific place to start, I think, since it contains many concepts and effects that you can jump right in with. Bound to Please has a lot of good book too, but it has fewer actual routines. But do get Mnemonica once you're ready to go further.
Robert Apodaca
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Thanks everyone for your advice. I think I'll probably go with an Aronson book first then work my way up.
alakazam!
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A good faro shuffle is pretty useful (but not essential) for some of the deatails in Mnemonica, so it may be an idea to bear this in mind. It is a lot of money for a book as you say, but it's extremely well written and has lots of *really* nice effects Smile
Pasteboard Alchemist
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It's worth noting for those of you in the reverse situation (knowing Mnemonica and thinking of buying an Aronson book) that "Try the Impossible" is a fantastic book with some great principles. I've been performing "Twice as Hard" for a while now with the Mnemonica stack and wrapped in the right presentation it's an absolute stunner.
churken
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Mnemonica is the best book ever written on the memorized deck. It is worth every penny. About half of the book is for the Tamariz Stack and half for the any cyclical stack. I personally use the Aronson Stack, but if I could only own one magic book Mnemonica would be it. Even the stuff dealing with Juan's stack has taught me a great deal, and muck of it can be modified to the Aronson stack.

I would say that you should get Mnemonica now. If you are serious about stack work, but aren't up to Mnemonica yet, you will one day. And if you wait and the book will go OOP and you will have to pay much more than the $60.00. Check out eBay, I have seen Mnemonica go for less than list price.


Mnemonica is the one book I would take with me to a desert island if I had to choose only one book. I also stated that it was well worth the $60.00. Since then I have done some checking and found that Dennis Loomis offers it on his site at a nice discount - $53.00. He also has an entire section of memdeck material printed up that is free. Make sure to check his thoughts on the Triple Poker Routine. It is brilliant.

Paul
Cesar Munoz
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In my opinion, it is a worthwhile investment. It is a book that you can read over and over again, each time learning something new. It is a book that I treasure!

Some of my favorite MD work comes from Mneumonica!
Dennis Loomis
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Hey Drizz,
Magic books are expensive... absolutely. It's because they are published in small quantities, compared to the mass market books we see on the shelves in mainstream book stores. So, how does one answer whether Mnemonica is worth what you must pay to get it? This is a personal question that we really can't answer for you. I do mem-deck work in my shows, and I also study it for my own enjoyment. I'm thrilled when anything new is released. Many of us that don't read Spanish waited for years for the English Translation of Mnemonica to become available. It was worth the wait, and certainly worth the price... to me. I go back to it to look up stuff often. I'm always finding great ideas that I somehow overlooked before. I would not be without it. There are tons of things that you can do with other stacks. And, with some thought, many things that you may be able to do with other stacks if you put your mind to it. Tamariz is a fountain of knowledge about card work generally and his insight into how to use mem-deck work in conjunction with other sleights, techniques and artifices is just astonishing.

And, who knows, you might be tempted to learn the Mnemonica stack. And that's not necessarily bad. I first learned the Nikola... than gave it up and turned to Aronson. I've been happy with the choice, but at the time I did that, there wasn't much information available about Mnemonica outside the Spanish speaking world. Today, I'm not sure which I'd choose. In fact, I'm dead certain that whether you use Aronson or Mnemonica, you'll be happy with your choice, and have a very powerful tool for card magic.

Dennis Loomis
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Nathan Coe Marsh
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Quote:
Mnemonica is the best book ever writen on the memorized deck. It is worty every penny. About half of the book is for the Tamariz Stack and half for the any cyclical stack. I personally use the Aronson Stack, but if I could only own one magic book Mnemonica would be it. Even the stuff dealing with Juan's stack has taught me a great deal, and muck of it can be modified to the Aronson stack.

I would agree whole heartedly with the review while making one pedantic correction: half of the book does not work with "any cyclical stack." Stebbins, and it's variants (Osterlind), will not work with the majority of the stack independent material (and these are cyclical).

Mnemonica's appendices alone are worth the price of the book!

Likewise, Eric Mead's material in Tangled Web is very ground-breaking and worth the study of anyone interested in memdeck...

N.
Bill Hallahan
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If you want to learn the most about memorized deck work, get Mnemonica.

Also get all of Simon Aronson's books, starting with Bound To Please. There is a great memorized deck routine in Aronson's Simply Simon that's only mentioned at the end of Mnemonica. You can only learn that routine from Aronson's book.

However, Mnemonica is the most comprehensive treatise on the subject of memorized deck work that I'm aware of. Most ideas are in there.

If you do poker and bridge routines, learn the Aronson stack. It only requires a cut to get the deck setup for any deal. Mnemonica sometimes requires displacing cards. If you want to shuffle the deck into, and out of, European new deck order, then use Tamariz's stack. For the most part, those two decks are identical in features.

Nathan Coe Marsh wrote:
Quote:
Stebbins, and it's variants (Osterlind), will not work with the majority of the stack independent material (and these are cyclical).

They will work if you memorize them. Richard Osterlind has posted that he memorized his stack and I know of another magician who memorized the Si Stebbins stack. Granted, after memorization, the cyclical nature becomes irrelevant.

Any deck order can be used for memorized deck work. Of course, it usually is best if the deck order has no obvious patterns. Also, most people will want to memorize a stack that has features. Both the Aronson stack and the Tamariz (Mnemonica) stack have lots of features.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch"
Richard Osterlind
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Quote:
On 2007-04-01 22:43, Nathan Coe Marsh wrote:
Quote:
Mnemonica is the best book ever writen on the memorized deck. It is worty every penny. About half of the book is for the Tamariz Stack and half for the any cyclical stack. I personally use the Aronson Stack, but if I could only own one magic book Mnemonica would be it. Even the stuff dealing with Juan's stack has taught me a great deal, and muck of it can be modified to the Aronson stack.

I would agree whole heartedly with the review while making one pedantic correction: half of the book does not work with "any cyclical stack." Stebbins, and it's variants (Osterlind), will not work with the majority of the stack independent material (and these are cyclical).

Mnemonica's appendices alone are worth the price of the book!

Likewise, Eric Mead's material in Tangled Web is very ground-breaking and worth the study of anyone interested in memdeck...

N.



I would hardly call the Breakthrough Card System a "variant" of the Si Stebbins system.

I also PM'd Bill Hallahan and he, like Dennis Loomis, admits has never read either my "Memorized Breakthrough" or my "Guidebook Number 4." Both these books deal with the issues discussed here and I find it fruitless to debate with people who wish to talk about something they have not researched thoroughly. I stick by my own arguments as I do own and have researched the other named references.

Richard
Bill Hallahan
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Richard,

The issue being discussed here is whether Drizz should purchase Mnemonica when he is already learning the Aronson stack.

Indeed, I only mentioned that the BCS cyclic stack could be memorized because another poster incorrectly stated that it could not be used a memorized deck. I would think you would appreciate that correction!

Perhaps you object to me stating that the cyclic nature become irrelevant when the deck is memorized? It certainly would be irrelevant for me. I could no sooner forget a card-number mapping or a number-card mapping than I could forget the alphabet, and after using the Aronson stack for some time, I've memorized the forward and backward sequences too. I have read that others find that feature useful. I didn't perform with a memorized deck until I knew it almost as well as I know my own name!

In any event, this topic isn't about your stack, so I don't see why I need to research your memorized stack to recommend a book by Juan Tamariz!
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch"
landmark
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I suspect Richard's objection is that strictly speaking the BCS is not a cyclical stack in the sense that Si Stebbins or Eight Kings is--there is no repetition of any kind throughout the stack.


Jack Shalom
churken
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Drizz,

I posted most of my thoughts re: Mnemonica and I stick by those. It is by far the best single source of memorized deck material released to date.

That said I do feel I should add that I had the same thought's you are having when I first purchased the Tamariz book. I had already memorized the Aronson stack and had been using it for several years and considered learning the Tamariz stack as well. Finally, after weighing the benefits (i.e. getting into stack from new deck order, additional built in tricks, etc), I came to the conclusion that it would be too confusing. Maybe that's just the case for me, but I didn't want to see a 4S and all of a sudden have two different positions come into my mind. Or for that matter, didn't want to grab the wrong deck and start doing an Aronson Stack effect only to find I was using the Tamariz Stacked deck.

Maybe some people are comfortable and agile enough to carry around two or three stacks in their mind, I just happen not to be one of them.

My advice is if you have made significant progress on the Aronson Stack, stick with that one and read Mnemonica as about half the book will work with Aronson Stack. If, on the other hand you've only worked your way up to card #8 in the Aronson Stack then you really don't have that much to loose if you switch now. Just be forewarned, no matter which stack you decide upon you will be buying all of Aronson's books, and the Tamariz book, and if you're anything like the rest of us about half a dozen others.

Good Luck,

Paul
Dennis Loomis
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Richard,
I don't think it necessary or possible to have read every book on card magic. I have worked with memorized decks for years, starting with the Nicola and I switched to Aronson. I have studied your BCS and have repeatedly stated that it is a remarkable construct. But, I have no desire to memorize it, so I have not purchased your book. I have read much you have written about it, and as I understand it, you and Harry Lorayne have worked out the mnemonic devices to commit your BCS to memory. Fine. But if there is more there and it is pertinent to your argument you do yourself no credit by trying to sell your book to folks that may or may not need it. Perhaps you can allude to or suggest the nature of the arguments contained within your books that are appropriate to this thread. I am insulted that you feel that anything I say is worthless because I was willing to admit that I did not read certain texts. I would not do that to you, Richard. I have purchased many of your fine products and promoted them on the Café and elsewhere. I don't like the nature of your personal attack one bit. I am certainly willing to admit to the fact that I don't know everything about card magic. But then if that were a prerequsite for posting to the Café, there would be little discussion of any kind.

A while back, you and I "locked horns" on the relative value of the BCS versus a memorized stack. I stated my opinion that a memorized deck is more powerful. You disputed that, but then created a method to memorize you BCS stack. So who was right?

I have tried repeatedly on the Café to point out that you really cannot compare different tools for different jobs. The BCS and memdeck stacks were created to do different things. But, because they are both "stacks" the neophytes insist on determining which is "better." There is no logical answer to that question.



Dennis Loomis
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<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
Mago Gregorio
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Fully agree with Dennis, Mem deck and "cycle" deck are different things. You don't get the same effects. Anyway, IMHO, any deck is ok to memorie, even a random shuhhle deck, the important is that you know at any time for each card its position.
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