First off I respect copyright.

Here's the question though, Is it OK to download a magic video from a P2P site to see if you want to buy it? For example I purchased a Sanky DVD believing it to have some useful purpose but it turns out to be naff. It didn't teach anything. Not it didn't teach anything useful, it really didn't have any teaching in it at all. The title was something like Card Sleights (I can't remember, buyers remorse keeps kicking in and blocking the thoughts).

So I started to think, what if. What if instead of reading the reviews that just hype the DVD and help to separate you from your cash you just got a chunk of the video from the web, had a look and if you thought this could be good you purchased it. Else you say this is naff and didn't purchase it.

What do you think?

The videos are copyrighted and it is illegal to put them on P2P sites and to download them.

If you have to ask the question, that should be your answer usually.

Like thumbing through a magazine or book first before buying eh?
Problem is, as I see it, "our" material is WAY different. For the same reason you can't take back a trick you bought, short of it being defective and getting a replacement.

ACMP,
how can you say you respect copyright then ask the question of downloading before you buy? Or did I misunderstand what you said or asked?

Crack dealers use this practice, they let you try before you buy, heaven knows they wouldn't want to cheat you out of your hard earned money before letting you try it for free.

Or better yet, I'm in the market for a 2 story house and you live in one, so I break in and move in for a week, and since I'm also thinking of buying a TransAm and you have one in your driveway, how about I just take the keys and drive it around for awhile to see if I like it. THEFT, can we say "THEFT?" I knew you could.

As for the Sankey DVD and his other effects, well that could be discussed in the good the bad and the garbage thread, most of us know what catagory it falls under.

I feel I need to say , I haven't done this. It's just a question, about ethics/morals/whatever you want to call it.

I've just purchased a DVD (card splitting) I'm reasonably sure it will be good as it has had good reviews. I'm not talking about DL and watch an entire magic video then say, well that wasn't too complicated I'm sure I can remember everything I need then not buying it, as that would be theft.

The thought entered my head that maybe having a look at a bit of the video would persuade me to either buy or not buy the video. A sample, like reading the free bit of a book they post on websites now, or the song clip you can download. Maybe even encourage the video makers to post bits for people to look at. It worked for music downloads, we wouldn't have legitimate downloads if it wasn't for napster and the likes. Home taping has not killed the music industry.

I know magic is different, it's about secrets and not entertainment (as far as the DVD's we're talking about here) and once you know the secret you cannot remove it.

Michael, how doe s 'fair use' factor into this? You are allowed to go in to a library and photo copy sections of books legally under the fair use laws, does this extend to video? [genuine question, I really don't know the answer]

Jerrine, exactly like having a quick flick through a magazine, but I understand that the content is much different.

Mad Jake, See, when you go to buy a house you get a full tour, a report on its condition and such, when you buy a car you get a test drive, look under the bonnet (hood) and such, not very good analogies. When you buy a magic DVD you look at the title and hand over your money (usually a lot of money).

I'm not saying the videos are not worth the money, to those who want them. But how many of us have had a DVD that sucks. And If we'd been able to have a preview of the disk we'd have not bought it? Like wise the opposite must be true, there are surely many fantastic DVD's out that if you saw a preview you'd buy it in a flash.

I don't subscribe to the 'if you have to ask you know the answer' point of view, this forum is for asking these questions. I am not asking if it is OK to steal the video/secrets, I'm simply starting a discussion on what people think about getting a preview of the DVD before they chose to buy it.

FWIW I've already been asked what P2P I use by PM as the asker's is not so good at finding magic stuff. We have P2P users posting here and DLing secrets without paying for them. I want to pay (have payed) for a DVD. Don't shoot me, try and be constructive.

As a curve ball, what about print.google.com? I can search for and read large sections of magic books there, is this OK to do? What is the difference?

WE're getting close to two discussions here.

1) copyright of works (p2p sharing violates copyright)

2) secrets as property in magic

Item one is legal in our society and item two is a fiction which permits some otherwise unethical business practices in our little market.

If we lose the fiction and go with "performing rights" we might go further but that's just my opinion.

As it's legal to sell other people's secrets, even in magic...

From my PM Inbox

P2P is a violation of law plain and simple. YES it is wrong. Not really a question now is it?

I fully agree and almost HAVE to explore an item before purchasing. Usually that means seeing the performance parts of a work. If I like what I see and have any interest in exploring that approach ... yes it's a sale. If not... okay but at least it's not a pig in a poke. Lotta pork being sold as silk purses these days.

Well actually it depends on whos laws you are trying to abide by, In Canada for instance it is legal to download anything you like... uploading it however is illegal!.. go figure?

Wrong! P2P is not illegal, breaching copyright is. There is a difference.

Honestly I was hoping for some intellectual conversation around the discussion point. Maybe I should have put it on my Christmas list.

Ok, dumb question here... what exactly is P2P?

Oops I need to clarify. In item (1) I should have written: the way some people use p2p violates copyright.

Dorian, P2P is shorthand for "peer to peer" and that is shorthand for what amounts to (in this case) "somebody has the file and makes it available to others via the internet so they can have it on their PC too".

If you use Google, and check the words "torrent" "bitnet" "seeds" you will get to a FAQ page to read up about how they seem to be moving all sorts of files.

It is just different opinions on how to stop it. Going after the source instead of the user. Theory being if you can't upload anything, then you can't very download anything.

Either way it is tough to stop.

I a round about way of putting it I like to think of it like this. The "author" or what have you has a certain work product. He gets certain monies for this. IF your method of arriving at the information does not result in him getting money, it is not right. I DID NOT SAY AGAINST THE LAW.

IF his book is in the library, he knows the result of it being there, many will read it.

You want to test drive a car before you buy it, makes sense. Due dilligance and all. But you can't test drive a "secret, or method".

Ah, ok thanks Jonathan. I was reading this whole thread wondering if and how in the world people were getting downloads on to Playstations! Thanks for the clarification.

Happy Holidays,

Dorian Rhodell

Listen, if you don't know the value of something - just come here and do a search for it. I know the DVD that you speak of "The Art of Sleight of Hand". I bought it and was oh so disappointed. I should have checked here first.

Now, when I need to know something I check here. It's saved me a lot of money and I'm on the right side of ethics.

I will tell you this, I speak on the telephone with a lot of guys from this site. They are all highly ethical and wouldn't speak to you if you aren't. Understand what I'm saying? If you are unethical you will never make friends with the likes of Bill Palmer, Pete Biro, Frank Starsini, Mad Jake, or dozens of others here. You will be left with the other unethical people.

Think about it, with whom do you want to associate?

For the last time, hopefully.

This is not a thread about ripping people off. This is not a thread about stealing stuff from the Internet. This is not a thread about getting it all for free.

This was, no is, about the concept of using existing channels to better evaluate a potential purchase. I have not once said that I have downloaded anything and yet the shiny forks of accusation are pointing at me, guilty until I leave the forum in many eyes, no doubt.

So, once more I will state the idea. You wish to see if a video looks good before you pay £30 (about $60) so you DL a bit of the video and have a look. At present the only way to get the video clip is from P2P networks. Ideally you would be able to get these clips from the resellers web sites, but you can't. You don't DL the clip to learn the secrets, you don't do it to get something for nothing. This is just the video equivalent of a test drive.

In response to an earlier question 'how can you say you respect copyright then ask the question of downloading before you buy' I would have thought that this idea would fall into the 'fair use' clause of copyright law and therefore you would be OK legally to do this. I'll do some checking. If anyone knows for sure about this could they post/PM.

The music industry were very much against downloading and sharing of music, and now it has lead to a very useful and profitable revenue stream for them.

I do not consider my self unethical, I do not see where I have indicated in any way that I am unethical.

Rik, I do check here now, I learnt my lesson with the card slights DVD (man that sucked, anyone want a copy, only $15 +S&H?)

I agree. The thing is, I may be persuaded to buy a DVD that I may not otherwise have, so the author gets more money for their work. Admittedly though if I don't like what I see then I won't buy it.

Posted: Dec 21, 2006 7:26am
Interesting read at Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

Quotes from the page - pertaining to US law:

Quote:

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In

Quote:

In short, we must often... look to the nature and objects of the selections made, the quantity and value of the materials used, and the degree in which the use may prejudice the sale, or diminish the profits, or supersede the objects, of the original work

It would seem to me, not a legal person, that IF the clip was intended to review the DVD and was not substantial as both a proportion of the entire DVD and to the secrets contained within that the 'preview' is OK if used to decide if to buy or not. The tricky bits are the substantial amount (as to the secrets contained) and also to prejudice the sale. Though I doubt a court would convict if you had a DL clip in order to review before purchasing.

Now all you need to do is find a method of P2P that only gives you clips instead of the whole thing.... lol

(to the above) ha ha ha...

I'd much prefer folks post the performance segments of their instructional videos online so we can look at them.

Those who understand how to vote with their wallets and who have the self respect to honor those whose works they wish to use will do the right thing from there.