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lunatik Inner circle 3225 Posts |
Oh, and what about you sharing secrets on a magic trick with another magician friend of yours???? Did the packaging say you could share the secret with others? NO it didn't!! So in fact what you're doing is just as bad as someone who downloads a trick off the internet. You just tell and show someone how to do it. You are just as guilty. You should by your theory tell your friends to go out and buy the trick and learn the secret for themselves. You guys need to learn to think before you post....hypocrites...
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
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rikbrooks Inner circle Olive Branch, Mississippi 1317 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-12-22 11:43, Ibd1Mon99 wrote: Take a few days off for Christmas and look what's happened! First, Jim, in your quote above, who keeps a Trans-Am in their house? I wouldn't have to break into the house to steal it. Seriously though, let's put a head onto this. If the author doesn't give his/her consent then in fact, yes, downloading it IS theft. All justification aside there is a part of each of us that knows that is true. If some tiny little voice doesn't believe that then I personally don't want to know you. You are beneath me and not worth my time. As for the original poster - of COURSE he knows it, if he had no doubts, if that tiny voice weren't nagging him, then there would be no question. He would just go on and blithely download. BUT the original poster had a very good point. A snippet, an example, would be nice. After all, the film companies release those. Go to see a movie (Rocky Balboa for example) and you will see a lot of previews. I think that it would be a great idea for authors to put out previews of their work. I also think that the reason that they don't is that they don't think of it. So, why not ask them? Send them an email. Then if they don't you can always refuse to buy the product. If enough of us do this then everyone will start putting out previews and that will be a positive change for the industry. And everyone gets to be ethical. |
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Banester Special user 669 Posts |
This brings up a question that I have had for a long time, but I guess was afraid to ask. If you sell one of your "used" dvd's or tricks is that necessarily ethical? I mean, you now know the effect and maybe can even make your own gimick. Are you totally sworn off of performing any of those tricks you just learned? Is that not taking money out of the designer's pockets? I can say that I have some useless tricks that I will never use and several VHS & DVD's that I will never watch again, but I will never sell them. One other thing, in a training video such as "Xtreme Beginner DVD" from ellusionist is it correct that once you have gained the knowledge and moves that you can now sell it? I know this practice goes on in music and other dvd's so I am not saying what is right or wrong here, but would be interesting to see what others may feel.
The art of a magician is to create wonder.
If we live with a sense of wonder, our lives become filled with joy -Doug Henning- |
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acmp Elite user Nottinghamshire 466 Posts |
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On 2006-12-26 10:06, rikbrooks wrote: I'm glad someone has got it. Ripping off other peoples work is wrong, plain and simple. getting an 'all legal and above board' preview/sample is the ultimate goal. But it took millions of napster users to get the music industry to realise it, and they are much more open than the magic community. I feel that this horse has been well and truly flogged, it is apparent that there are many people here who do DL from P2P sites and that there are many people here who would ban them if they could. I believe that the idea of getting a sample or preview under the fair use idea is open to interpretation as it does not appear to have been tested in law yet. I would hope that it is OK, but I would rather get a proper sample from the maker. Let's hope some influential people read this thread and start to make that change. Banester, there is a forum for selling your old stuff so I guess it's OK, as long as you promise to forget everything you learnt from the DVD.
acmp<><
"Well if I had one wish in this god forsaken world, kids It'd be that your mistakes would be your own" |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
The arguements are so idiotic they seem to be comming from children.
First off nobody said they were "perfect". Nobody denied speeding, except for me, as when I was a cop I cleaned up LOTS of fatal wrecks, which has kind of made me think when I drive. So that was a bad example. Point is NOT EVERYONE DOES IT. Even if over a million do it, we are a country of 300 MILLION! So the arguement is stupid. The idea that if enough people do it then it is right is idiotic. Slavery is a pretty good example of that. Many did it, so the more who do it makes it right? Obviously not. See that is the second way to go with an idiotic arguement. First "everyone does it", then "well with so many doing it it can't be wrong". It is a way to justify bad behavior. Hey a lot of people sell drugs, kill people, rob people, and so forth,well it must be right then huh? Grow up, admit your doing something wrong. I don't care if you change or not, but at least be intellectually honest about it. Stop telling others they are hypocryts simply because we don't condone your behavior. People make mistakes, happens to be all the time. I don't make them WILLINGLY, and once I realise I am making them I stop. THAT is what makes the difference.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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The Amazing Noobini Inner circle Oslo, Norway 1658 Posts |
The dogmatic phrase that "peer-to-peer is theft" or similar originates with huge record companies and film studios who have pumped a fortune into ad campains which now open up for them the precedence to sue the parents of teenagers out of their entire savings because the kid downloaded a couple of songs. It is a witch hunt.
So what we have here now is a case of mild hysteria and people being confused about things they know little about except what they may have heard others say or have seen in an anti-copyright violation trailer. Legally very little is new here except for people's reactions. Think about it... no one would argue that it is anything but wrong for a person to take somebody elses work and sell copies of it or to give it away. The people who demand that everything should be free usually define "everything" as "other people's property". The distribution of other people's intellectual property has been illegal for a long time. And most would agree wrong. Now then... the downloader... what does he do? Well, from his point of view he is basically doing exactly the same as people have done for ages. He is breaking the same copyright laws in the same manner as when someone borrows a book from a friend and reads it without paying for an individual copy. He is doing the exact same thing as when some borrows a jazz LP from a co-worker in order to copy it onto tape. He is doing the same as when someone is taping a copyrighted tv broadcast onto VHS tape. He doesn't STEAL anything. Nothing is removed. The only differences between these different actions is that one is new and the others are so old that we don't think about them as problematic anymore. People who are ready to crusade the filesharing kid is likely to have broken the same copyright laws. We need to take a few breaths and count to ten and think about this. History has shown that whenever a new technical standard is introduced, the conglomerates are ready with their lawyers and marketing departments to try to change the laws in their favor. New ways requires new thinking and part of the problem with filesharing is that it seems bigger and more global and viciously organized than it really is. Most studies show however that the past couple of years of peer-to-peer activity have NOT hurt record sales or DVD sales. They have in fact increased. It turns out that people actually want to own a "hard copy" of things. They shop like never before. It's just that they shop differently. A man who was a developer of a popular multimedia PC application told me that they were in favor of kids copying their stuff and passing it along to friends. Why? Because when these kids become proficient in their craft, they are likely to buy the product they know how to use. As well as related products from the same source. Downloading is in fact legal in a lot of countries whereas making something available for others to download isn't. Rather than theft it could perhaps be likened to sneaking into a movie theatre or peeking into it for a while to catch a low quality glimpse of the big screen. Standing room only. No seats are occupied from the paying public. Word of mouth from these illegal viewers may even lead to a lot of additional tickets being sold. HOWEVER... since we are on the topic of morals... consider this: Most magicians putting out videos are NOT huge conglomerates raking in millions. They do not have a legal department working full time to defend their rights. I think it would be a good idea to support them.
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell) "Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry) |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
IF you want creators to keep creating, supporting them seems logical to me.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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ChristopherM Special user UK 844 Posts |
It certainly is logical Danny; several people on here seem to want to avoid this 'inconvenient truth' and spend time coming up with colourful and ultimately useless arguments for why they act in such a despicable manner. Hopefully the Trojans will teach them a lesson or two.
As to the original poster's question - on top of 'difficulty ratings', written reviews, the internet boards, etc. make use of the demo videos which are available for several of the products. Meir Yedid's site is very good and has several informative clips: http://www.mymagic.com. As you mention, Penguin's site is quite good for demo clips too. For those products without clips, ask the creator/retailer if they could/plan to put one out. Or look for performances of some of the effects which interest you on a site like http://www.magicvideodepot.com which is good fun and all above-board. Finally the legal question: it's well established that the uploading is illegal. The UK's position on the downloading is that it's also illegal, if you know the work to be copyright-infringed - in this case it is easy enough to tell this. The argument about the DVD being in the public domain doesn't hold, because the DVD's content is protected so not licensed to all. This applies not only to those with the blatant warning notice at the beginning but ALL of them. The 'fair use' argument wouldn't likely cut it in court; even if you intended to stop after 5 mins, say, there's no way of showing this intention. Plus, the fact that you started to DL the clip sufficiently shows culpability since that in itself (in the UK) is illegal. I see where you're coming from, but if the clip was just a demo, it would be far easier to justify. I think enough 'pressure' on the creators to put out previews will make them more widely available, as you say. So far, the trend is increasing, which is good. L&L DVDs besides others have clips on them, which are enjoyable to watch. PS - Danny's comment about money going to the creators ALWAYS I find interesting. What is your opinion of Magic Auctions, or the For Sale section of http://www.magicweek.co.uk, for example? |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Till we give up the "right" to copy the works of others in this craft by imitation or inspiration, the arguments made for asking others to not copy works by digital means will fall upon deaf ears.
Let's just call it "accurate inspired works" and move on.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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acmp Elite user Nottinghamshire 466 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-12-28 03:07, ChristopherM wrote: A couple of points. Getting clips from the producers is the ultimate goal, but I was talking about when this is not possible. The legal point in the UK is that it is illegal to DL copyrighted materials, this is based on the old laws relating to written materials. Due to this history it is illegal to DL a movie or song (or such) as it infringes on the copyright. This same law allows for fair use. Fair use of a motion picture is (I think) 3 minutes or 10% of the total whichever is the lesser. So it is clearly not illegal to DL within these constraints. As for showing the intention, your ISP and your won computer will record exactly what you have done. if you stay within the fair use levels then you could just submit your hard disk as evidence. It is up to the prosecution to prove any illegal activity so they would most likely want to have your disk anyway. But until this is tested in a court we'll not know for sure. Further conjecture seems inappropriate, unless you are a copyright lawyer and know for certain how this works. You say L&L DVD's have clips on them, I want the clips on the Internet so I can see what I'm buying, not adverts on a disk I have paid for (don't get me started on that one) And the trade in second hand books, videos and DVD's is illegal. I'm sure they say that they may not be loaned, sold or such. Another can of worms for sure. Anyway my DVD should be here soon so I can finally learn the secrets it contains.
acmp<><
"Well if I had one wish in this god forsaken world, kids It'd be that your mistakes would be your own" |
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The Amazing Noobini Inner circle Oslo, Norway 1658 Posts |
What I want to say before I too close this browser window is that I think things are blown a bit out of proportion here. Don't panic about this p2p thing just because you have read about it in the tabloids.
Let me reassure you that the downloading of pirated magic media is an extremely narrow niche in the world of digital magic media. Although there are a new generation of knitted hat wearing kids who download single trick videos with hip names with a lot of Xes in them, these are mostly consumers with a very limited spending potential to begin with. And anyway their downloading or "sharing" of such files will only lead to a greater word-of-mouth marketing for these products which eventually will lead to more sales. It just isn't a big problem. The digital age with information availability is here to stay. Like it or not, human nature is human nature and people will tend to grab whatever they can get for free. That is just the way things are. It has nothing to do with morals and laws really. It has more to do with understanding human behavior. Which this thread offers a typical insight into. People standing up, Ricki Lake Show style to announce that THEY would never behave in such a manner. "I'm better than you, I am a good citizen". That they are somehow better. Nobody really cares. And nobody believes it. Given the opportunity, everyone would rather get something for free than to pay for it. Just in different ways. When you release things onto the digital market, they will be copied, lent, borrowed. This is unavoidable. But the source of the mass spreading of magic secrets really isn't a small group of computer geeks but rather the huge onslaught of magic DVDs being launched on the market. If you click on the DVDs category at MJM Magic's web store, you will get 1079 products! Two months ago it was around 900. Some of these DVDs are truly aimed at maintaining a magic tradition, but the high number still indicates a certain wish among many people to spread everything, make money and make a name for themselves. This may not be immoral in any way either, my point is only that the fault why everyone on the planet soon will know a few magic tricks lies with the magicians and not the kids that admire them. The issue here however is more a question if or not you think that your avrage 16 year old would blindly spend hundreds of dollars a year on magic DVDs. Of course not. They weren't potential mass consumers to begin with. But when they get money, they will still shop retail. Nobody really loses a lot of money. And as far as the law goes... stop ranting about theft. Let the authorities deal with the law and the lawbreakers. People displaying vigilante syndromes and forming angry mobs is a lot more of a problem for a society than a few kids who commit misdemeanors. Finally I want to say that the person starting this thread would have had to have known where this discussion would go. Downloading these files may or may not be illegal depending on where you are in the world and it may or may not be immoral, depending on who raised you, but basically asking the very community who put out magic videos for their blessing to download them for free... That would be like asking some girl's father if he would mind very much if you slept with his daughter and introduced her to some more exotic bedside practices. It may not be illegal or immoral, but you shouldn't expect to walk away from the debate with all your teeth. The p2p technology is ubiquitous. The world has changed and it will not automatically change back. P2p is being built into Windows Vista. Like it or not a new reality requires new thinking. Such as a more flexible copyright system. Screaming angrily just isn't going to get anyone anywhere. Filesharing offers the option for the consumer to evaluate the product before buying. The only real losers commercially will be the ones who offer a hyped up over-advertized inferior product which no one would buy if they knew how bad it reall was. Well... in the future they will know. It doesn't matter if you think this is good or bad. It just is that way. Welcome to the 21st century.
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell) "Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry) |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I agree with you, the technology is here to stay.
Everyone wants something for free, you are correct. To steal it does not make it free. NOT everyone would steal to get it for free. That is my only addition to your post. Wheather it is or is not theft, you are indeed corect again, it is a matter for the authorities to sort out. I just looked at the news, I am not entirley certain that they will actually have the time to deal with it right away! So it is here to stay! That may be the smartest thing anyone has said on this subject.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
Morals and ethics are subjective. meaning; You are no one to tell anyone how they should run their life, what religion they should be, how to raise their kids, or whether it is right or wrong to reveal secrets, magic or otherwise. I personally don't share "your" ethics. So, on that end do not use it as a straw man argument for what I originally posted.
Unless I sign an NDA, revealing secrets is NOT Illegal. the only thing that is illegal is using the creators published work to do so. I can, however, reveal secrets in my own words. If you believe magicians don't share secrets, in person, at conventions or their local clubs and shops, you are mistaken. whether or not it's right or wrong is not for you or anyone else to decide. Again, it comes down to ethics and morals NOT law If you wish to challenge me on copyright law, I will gladly accept it. C. Loubard |
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
I only threw out that suggestion, in the event you question my motive for participating on a magic forum... since I don't care for magic.
I would like to know, however, if you understand copyright law and how it applies to magic? Also, how does it differ from ethics and morals? L. Ron Hubbard, now that is a scam I wish I would have been a part of. |
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lunatik Inner circle 3225 Posts |
Lol, you'd be a millionare by now. I know there's a BIG difference concerning copyright law and ethics and morals. If you don't care for magic and you don't mind me asking, how did you come about finding these forums?
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
I found the forum by punching in certain key words into the google search engine. The search results pulled up certain threads within the walls of this forum... so I stuck around.
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Jeff J. Special user Connecticut 787 Posts |
C. Loubard, I'll send you a couple bootlegged magic DVD's and some magic props I stole from a magicians car (sorry Blaine) for you to try out. You may find you like magic after all.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-12-22 15:08, acmp wrote:... I guess there is an argument that as the DVD has been sold it is now in the public domain so it is no longer secret.... Whoah That is still two arguments being confounded 1) a magic item once sold is nolonger "secret" within magicdom. Go ahead and talk about the thing with other magicians if you so choose. 2) The term PUBLIC DOMAIN has a very specific meaning as regards a work. Unless the copyright holder specifically donates the work to the public domain or "general commons" it remains protected by copyright and hence may not be copied without the express consent of the copyright holder. 2a) I happen to argue that as far as "SECRETS" go, any OTHER expression of the data may be taken into the public domain if that's what you want to do since magic does not have the legalities of "trade secrets" in place yet.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
HAHA! I might just learn the secrets so I can make my own youtube tutorial
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
There you go, that is legal.
And if ANYONE tries to make a fuss... you know what to do... nice and loud please.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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