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Jerrine
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Busking is work.
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James,
I mistook anything to mean anything, as in being sure of. See how words matter?
For future reference when I don't know the meaning of a word I don't simply ignore that fact. I find out what it means, even if it means asking the person that said it what they meant. If you can't understand that words are all we have here to convey ideas and the importance of choosing them wisely, as you say, we are at an impasse. I see that as the basic building block of written discussion/debate/argument. Forgive me for taking so long to realize your position on tossing words around willy nilly. I see Monster in a whole new light now. The Cookie Monster comes to mind.

From your lack of response I will conclude that you don't want to discuss poverty.
Josh Riel
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[quote]On 2007-01-03 16:22, James F wrote:

Quote:
Josh, that's like saying "I wish when people came to conclusions on why we get sick or objects fall off trees or planets orbit the sun, they would just keep it to themselves" That makes absolutely no sense.

No, it's exactly like what I said, quite clearly.

Quote:
Morality can be treated as the same. If an argument is both valid and sound, it is just as true as any of the things that explain those topics I just listed. If this argument is valid and sound, then why would one keep it to himself? Its all for the betterment of mankind.


IF the argument was sound. The one you are offering is not. And if there was some omnipresent morality that could be proven we wouldn't need these insipid discussions

Quote:
You believe in personal responsibility? No matter what responsibilities these people have, they can do nothing to change their situation. Its having compassion and love for all people that is important, and our responsibility. There is nothing greater.


There is nothing greater to YOU. You need to understand that no matter the value you place on an opinion, it is still an opinion.

Quote:
How about instead of letting those people die because there are too many, we give money to organizations who will help reduce the population.


Why should I give them money either? Why do you think I should be giving money? MY money, you have no place to decide what I do with it.

Quote:
How about when there is an area of people starving and dying of dehydration, we give money to organizations who will go and build wells and give the people farm animals. You all keep saying to fix the cause, that's fine. Things like that will fix the causes and keep the people alive who are alive now.


When did I say we should fix the cause, when all the poor die the problem will be fixed. Or when the poor revolt against the governments that are causing this the problem will be fixed.

Quote:
Finally, Josh, something tells me that if it were you over there seeing your children starve to death and wondering if you're going to have food the next day you wouldn't think back to your momma and say "Well, its OK that other people have SUVs and go on cruises and waste food and I'm sitting here watching my loved ones starve to death. After all, life isn't fair" Give me a break.


I am not over there, I am here, working hard to make my children not have to live like that. Also I am not a self centered moron who has children he can't afford

Quote:
that's one of the most arrogant things I have ever heard.


Get used to it. If you believe that someone who disagrees vehemently with yourself is arrogant..... You will find more than you can imagine. Your beliefs are based on a world that sacrifices itself so that you don't have to. That is exactly what this reasoning is.

Again what money did you waste on college that you could have spent on helping the poor? That is ridiculous, expecting me to pony up some dough so you can feel good about yourself.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
evolve629
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It's all about causes and beliefs. We don't always have to pony up money for a belief we believe in; one can always put in time in forum such as this one or a blog for one's belief. One can pony up time, skills, crafts, etc for a conviction or an opinion. I do donate monterary to the humane society yearly because I have a conviction that what the humane society stands for a good value personally.
One hundred percent of the shots you don't take don't go in - Wayne Gretzky
My favorite part is putting the gaffs in the spectators hands...it gives you that warm fuzzy feeling inside! - Bob Kohler
Josh Riel
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But that isn't really what the discussion is about, is it?

We are not discussing what we are each doing personally, we are being told we aren't doing enough... Because of some guy who writes books and some kid who died.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
rossmacrae
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I think of the late, much-lamented Sam Kinison: "GO WHERE THE FOOD IS! You live in a f'in desert! Look ... know what this is? SAND! Know what it's gonna be in a hundred years? SAND! Go where the food is!"
Suppo
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Quote:
On 2007-01-03 23:54, rossmacrae wrote:
I think of the late, much-lamented Sam Kinison: "GO WHERE THE FOOD IS! You live in a f'in desert! Look ... know what this is? SAND! Know what it's gonna be in a hundred years? SAND! Go where the food is!"


Love it.

James, when you decided to reinterpret what I said and narrow its focus so that you could argue against it, you tailored the debate. You are not worth my time.
James F
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Funny. I came to this post just now expecting to see all these "arguments" I apprently overlooked. Saying "I don't agree with it" is not an argument. Sadly, I have still not seen one. I wonder why...

Josh says: "IF the argument was sound. The one you are offering is not."

Then PLEASE Josh, please show me where the argument goes wrong. How is the situation Bob is in of any moral difference than that of our own living here in America. Im all ears and Id love to hear it.

Also, yes, we are talking opinion here. However, you use opinion to prove things. In this circumstance, its my opinion that Bob was wrong. (Not Jerrines, and that makes us unable to debate the situation further) If you share the same opinion, I can then use it for an argument. This argument is opinion. However, the logical construction of it enables it to prove things. If you accept all the opinions (premises) and the conclusion follows, then you must accept the conclusion. that's why Im sitting here waiting for someone to explain why the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises (That would be how Bobs situation is different from ours in a morally relevant way) or explain that they reject a premise (Like Jerrine)

Josh says "Again what money did you waste on college that you could have spent on helping the poor? That is ridiculous, expecting me to pony up some dough so you can feel good about yourself."

First of all, Im on the HOPE scholarship so to answer your question: None. Second of all, it goes back to what Balducci was saying. If I don't go to college, I cant make as much money and cant donate more. And you giving money doesn't make me feel good about myself. Me donating money may, but not you.

Josh says: "Also I am not a self centered moron who has children he can't afford"

Right, because you know EXACTLY whats happening over in these areas. Many places we are talking about don't have the proper education to know about things like this. (Birth control) Even if they do, that doesn't mean that they have access to it. Also, how do you know these children are born during the crisis? Perhaps the civil war or famine broke out after the children were born. And even, after all this, just because the parents have the children, that doesn't mean the children should suffer. Maybe the parents are stupid (Im not saying they are, but IF), that doesn't mean we should deny aid to the children.

All Im asking for is an argument besides "I don't agree"

I get that you all don't agree. that's very clear. I want to know how Bobs situation is different from our own. Stop focusing on attacking my literal sense of words or how I pay for school. The point is the argument. (Thats Bobs situation compared to our own) If you reject the conclusion, explain WHY.

James

Posted: Jan 4, 2007 8:57pm
"James, when you decided to reinterpret what I said and narrow its focus so that you could argue against it, you tailored the debate. You are not worth my time."

Suppo,

I don't know what you're refering to here. If I have indeed done this, please elaborate. If I missed some point of what you were saying I would like to understand how I did this and be able to discuss your point as you meant it. Im not purposely ignoring or changing anyones view. If you had a real point and I seemed to miss it or somehow change what you meant to say, please let me know. No insult meant.

James
Josh Riel
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First off the argument goes wrong with your insistence about this "Bob" analogy. This has no bearing as it is so simplistic as to be humorous. If fixing the problem was as easy as flipping a switch you might have a point. If buying a guy a sandwich would fix his trouble, you might have something.
Talk about fixing the regimes, local and world leaders that are directly causing the problem. actually don't talk about it, do it. I am not going to argue that stupid point anymore.

If you believe you can prove a point using opinion, you need to understand the concept of proof. Sure if two people had the same opinion you would believe you had proof. You wouldn't.

So, someone is paying for you to go to college? Isn't there some more needy person? Change the world starting with James, not the Magic Café
Earn more money so I can donate more........ I wonder how many people laugh when you tell them that? Don't B.S. a B.S.er.

Do you need to be educated to not have sex? Do you need an education to realize the last 5 kids you had starved to death, maybe making another one isn't smart?
And if they are having a bit of bad luck, this goes back to the old "Life sucks and then you die".

And who said "I don't agree"? most posts I have read used at least several more words, if you took the time to read them you will have all your answers.

Anyway, you may read this. You may post a reply. You will not consider it, so I will bid you farewell.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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