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fortasse Inner circle 1201 Posts |
I'm trying to find out whether the C&B moves set out in Prof. Hoffman's "Modern Magic" (which I have) are essentially the same as those set out in Cremer's book "Secret Out" (which I do not have).
What prompts this question is a passage I came across in an essay (available over the internet) by Tony Shiels ("The Expert Escamoteur's Equipment...an Exploration in Three parts of Various Aspects of Cups and Balls Conjuring" (1966)) in which he suggests that that there are two main written sources for cups and balls moves. The first he identifies as Guyot whose C&B material was reproduced in Hoffmans's "Modern Magic" (although Guyot, I think, was actually preceded by Ozanam). The other Shiels identifies as a German named Kopp whose moves were supposedly copied by Cremer (or Frikell) in the "Secret Out". I'd be very interested in hearing from anyone who is familiar with both works. Fortasse |
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
The cups and balls routine in Modern Magic is the same routine that was in Secrets of Conjuring and Magic which Hoffmann claims to have translated. The moves are much better illustrated and delineated in SOC&M than in MM. Also, there is more detail in SOC&M than there is in MM.
The trouble with The Secret Out is that there are two books with the same title. Both are by W.H. Cremer, but the American edition has slightly different material in it. Also, the American edition does not have his name on it. The cups and balls work is basically the same in both books. It is not routined, but it has things like "How to make all the balls vanish from under the cup." This uses the Bosco gimmick. The book is not common, but you should be able to get a copy for around $100 or so. I haven't seen one on eBay for a while. My pricing may be way off. Byton Walker would be a good source for this, or perhaps Andy Greget. There is less material in Hoffmann, but all of it is practical. I would strongly suggest that you read SOC&M. You can download it from Wasshuber's site. I don't think Ozanam has been translated into English. I also believe that the same situation exists with Guyot. However, their material is in SOC&M.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
Richard Evans Inner circle 1379 Posts |
There is an English translation of either Guyot or Ozanam - I forget which. I have seen one or two of the complete sets in English for sale, but they cost around £2500 (approx $5000) for the set. Several editions of these were published and some editions omitted the chapter on cups & balls.
I have six locks on my door all in a row. When I go out, I only lock every other one. I figure no matter how long somebody stands there picking the locks, they are always locking three. Elayne Boosler
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fortasse Inner circle 1201 Posts |
Thank you ever so much, Bill, for your immensely helpful and enlightening reply. I do indeed have a copy of Robert-Houdin's book (as translated by Hoffman). I agree with what you say on how well it lays out the C&B moves. This is also an excellent source for the Conus and Bosco routines (or at least parts of them).
One small correction : Ozanam's book (Recreations in Mathematics.....) has indeed been translated into English (from as far back as 1803, per Hutton and Montucla). The translation is in four volumes. These books are usually available either as complete sets or individual volumes from magic booksellers over the internet. I just checked http://www.abebooks.com, for example, and they are showing various volumes of the English translation of Ozanam's work on sale from various booksellers. Of course, only a relatively small part of Ozanam's work deals with magic. As for Guyot, I think you're right, Bill. I have never come across an English version. There is, however, a German translation that I just saw amongst the listings on abebooks.com. Fortasse |
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I'll have to check with Conjuring arts and find out if they have these in their database.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
plungerman Loyal user 287 Posts |
The Secret Out is a nice book, but it generally goes for much more on ebay than it should. It is farily common in magic book sections of bookstores. The only thing I am adding is that if you pop for one it ought to be cheap or in great shape.
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Richard Evans Inner circle 1379 Posts |
OK, here's another 'Secret Out' question:
I have always thought that 'The Secret Out' was edited and translated by Cremer and that the C&B text was originally by Gustav Frikell. However, having just rediscovered my copy of the book, I see that Cremer is credited as the translator and editor, but no original author is cited. Was Frikell the original author of the whole book, or just the section on C&B?
I have six locks on my door all in a row. When I go out, I only lock every other one. I figure no matter how long somebody stands there picking the locks, they are always locking three. Elayne Boosler
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fortasse Inner circle 1201 Posts |
Interesting question, Taliesin. Let me know if you find out the answer. Would certainly clear up a lot of confusion.
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JimMaloney Inner circle 1184 Posts |
My understanding is that the contents of "The Secret Out" are largely taken directly (including illustrations, etc.) from two French books, Richard and Delion's "Magicien des salons ou le diable couleur de rose" and Blismon's "Manuel du Magicien". Frikell was a popular conjurer at the time the books were out, but it's not likely that he had anything to do with the books. Rather, his name was probably attached to the books to capitalize on his popularity.
Contrary to what Bill stated above, the book is pretty easily available. A quick search of used.addall.com or bookfinder.com will turn up multiple matches. With a little patience, you should be able to get a copy for around $60. Alternatively, a print-on-demand company recently made the book available for around $25, if you're not concerned about the collectible value of the earlier editions. I've also seen several copies pop up on eBay over the last six months or so. The book is definitely around. Conjuring Arts does have multiple copies of Guyot and Ozanam in their collection, but they do not appear to be scanned into Alexander at the moment. Ditto for "The Secret Out" and the Blismon and Richard/Delion books. I had asked Bill (Kalush) a while back about the possibility of scanning in the French books, as I wanted to compare them to my copy of "The Secret Out", and he indicated that he'd be willing to put them in. It was just a brief conversation in the Fantasma store, though, and I don't think he ever got around to actually scanning the in. I may just set up an appointment to check out the books in person, which was what I intended to do anyway. -Jim
Books and Magazines for sale -- more than 200 items (Last updated January 17th, 2014. Link goes to public Google Doc.)
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Richard Evans Inner circle 1379 Posts |
Thanks Jim, if you find any reference to Frikell when you see the original texts I'd be interested to hear.
Best Richard
I have six locks on my door all in a row. When I go out, I only lock every other one. I figure no matter how long somebody stands there picking the locks, they are always locking three. Elayne Boosler
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fortasse Inner circle 1201 Posts |
Jim :
This is enormously enlightening. Many thanks. Fortasse |
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I'm glad to see that the different editions of The Secret Out are more easily found now than they were about a dozen years ago, when I was working on the paddle book. Cremer credits Le Magicien des Salons in the Chatto and Windus edition, but he doesn't mention Frikell in the introduction of this particular version.
In the Dick and Fitzgerald edition, the author, presumably Cremer, does not credit the French sources, but rather credits some of his own earlier work. Frikell is not mentioned in this intro, either. According to Toole Stott, some of the London editions list Frikell as one of the authors. The American edition came out in 1859, the London edition ca. 1870.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
JimMaloney Inner circle 1184 Posts |
In the searches I've done, Frikell is generally listed as an author either for the D&F edition (presumably because no author is named and that's the name they were able to attach to the book) or the John Camden Hotten edition, which was the first UK edition, circa 1871. JCH died in 1873, at which point Chatto & Windus took over his business. I think that the first C&W edition of The Secret out was released in 1874. It also appears that John Grant put out a version of the book in the 1870's or 1880's. I'm trying to locate a JCH edition of the book for a reasonable price, so if I am able to get one, I'll let you know what it says there.
talesin: The books I'll be checking out when I eventually get to Conjuring Arts won't have any mention of Frikell. The copy of The Secret Out that they have is a first edition, from Dick & Fitzgerald, which doesn't contain any reference to Frikell. The French books I listed also would not mention him. What we need is one of the later editions of The Secret Out. -Jim
Books and Magazines for sale -- more than 200 items (Last updated January 17th, 2014. Link goes to public Google Doc.)
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
That tallies pretty much with what is in Toole Stott. Toole Stott mentions that the collation is the same between the Chatto and Windus edition and the John Camden Hotten edition.
I have the Dick and Fitzgerald and the Chatto and Windus. If you call Byron Walker, chances are he could locate the book in a matter of seconds and tell you what you need to know.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
fortasse Inner circle 1201 Posts |
While on the subject of antiquarian books, has anyone actually seen the "English Encyclopedia" of 1802 to which Stanyon refers as the source for many of the passes described in his series on C&B (reproduced in the 1937-38 Jinx). If so, can you give me the full citation for the encyclopedia?
Fortasse |
Richard Evans Inner circle 1379 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-01-10 20:12, JimMaloney wrote: OK - thanks.
I have six locks on my door all in a row. When I go out, I only lock every other one. I figure no matter how long somebody stands there picking the locks, they are always locking three. Elayne Boosler
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