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Tom Bartlett Special user Our southern border could use 763 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-01-31 16:15, MichaelKent wrote: Well after no less than 36 post defining and defending the definition he posted below as the only correct one. Truthteller has nothing left to say when presented with the real definition of hack, not even an acknowledgment. 1. Quote: Main Entry: Hackney Function: Transitive verb Inflected Form(s): Hack·neyed; hack·ney·ing 1 a : To make common or frequent use of b : To make trite, vulgar, or commonplace
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
The definition Michael posted is one use of the term, a specific one in regard to the field of writing. It comes from the same root and horse/cab usage. It is one meaning of the word. Some words have more than one meaning. Some words even have specific meanings within certain fields.
I hope you know that to be true. If you deny it, you are being belligerent. But I am confused as to your point, and flattered you would take the time to count my posts. I have always said hack is a term used to describe material that is hackneyed - the exact definition you just listed. It can mean other things, but so does the word 'light'. Do you really think a word having more than one meaning means that usage EVER dictates that an alternative meaning is used in an illogical context? I think you ARE being belligerent. Has this boiled down to a grasping at straws attempt to try and argue that hack and hackney are not based on the same root, that they do not convey similar meanings? Would all of this back and forth been eliminated has the topic of the post read, "What is hackneyed material?" Regardless of what you want to call it, we are talking about material that is overused, commonplace, and too many magicians acts. We are not talking about writers who compose stories for magazines. Are you going to pretend the definition I found is untrue? Are you going to claim that because the word has many meanings, that one is not valid? Are you going to claim that we must use one of the meanings in this discussion, even when it is clearly out of context? Do you think for a moment any of this has been about cab drivers?!?!?!? Given the fact you acknowledge the posted definition to be a valid one, what would you would call those magicians what, exactly? Purveyors of hackneyed material? Wait, that doesn't come trippingly off the tongue. I wonder how someone in show biz might shorten that phrase, give it a little punch, make it sting a little....I know, he would say that trick is hack OR that guy is a hack. For some reason, Tom, you seem to be unwilling to embrace what many people here, many people with very real performance experience, know to be true. That tired, old tricks presented with the same lines is HACK. Levente is a real, world performer who knows what the usage in the entertainment field is, and based on his post so is Yellow Jacket. Are you going to say these people are wrong? That the way they hear the words used every day is not correct? Are you calling these people liars, or misinformed? You can wish hack meant something else, but it won't change what it means among people who use it in the arts. Hack material is trite, overused, and commonplace. Hacks are people who foist such material onto the public. Sure hacks are also a kind of cab - but I don't know many cabs that do the "stand on the trapdoor" line, do you? Or do you disagree? And, even if HACK had 86 meanings, how would it change anything in regard to this argument. Is this just you wanting me to admit hack has more than one meaning? Of course it does. Look at the definition I posted. There is a 3 beside it. You MUST be trying to be belligerent. I am sorry that I clearly hit a sore spot. But hack is hack. If it makes you feel better, feel free to close you eyes, put your fingers in your ears, and pretend it isn't. I do not understand why any human being would be so resistant to something, which is clearly obvious. I am not the only one who has verified that hack has a very specific meaning in regard to the performing arts, of course it can also mean what Michael offered, but that does not mean that it isn't used to describe tired overused material. Lets make this easy: 1) Do you deny hackneyed means overused, trite, etc? 2) Do you deny that the word hack is used in the performing arts to described material that is overused, trite, and commonplace (bearing in mind several people on here - people with real experience, have attested to that fact). 3) DO you deny that people call certain performer's hacks? 4) Do you believe that the term hack is used because the person created work that was dull or because the person was doing stock material? Why are you grasping at straws here? Posted: Feb 7, 2007 2:48am -------------------------------------------- Oddly, my post got cut off (and several important edits were not made - I apologize for the bad writing): Unless you have another name for people whose acts are stale and overused? I suggested purveyor of hackneyed material. Can you do better? How about the generic magician? I like that one too? I am sorry that I clearly hit a sore spot. But hack is hack. If it makes you feel better, feel free to close you eyes, put your fingers in your ears, and pretend it isn't. But there are enough people on the thread who have validated this definition, and the dictionary supports it. So, what do you call a magician whose act is filled with trite, overused, and stale material, Tom? I don’t know, maybe...hack? |
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The Village Idiots Elite user Orlando 464 Posts |
Dull, unimaginative, and trite work.
Some are born idiots.
Some are made idiots. Some have idiocy thrust upon them. |
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Tom Bartlett Special user Our southern border could use 763 Posts |
You seem to just want to label and call me names, but face it, the definition you cite is not the one from the Random House Dictionary.
In my life time, hack has been associated with actors in this way: First it was used in derogatory way to describe great stage actors that stooped to doing motion pictures. Then it was use to describe great stage and film actors that lowered themselves, to do television but more especially TV commercials. That is not the definition of hack you ascribe to. But your definitionn hackneyedn, is correct but it is not the same word as hack. A better example of hack in magic, would be a notable, maybe famous magician promoting a classic trick on a DVD and call it “25 Tricks With Cups & Ball” especially in a TV commercial. On the other hand, a magician performing a cup & ball routine, for an audience is not a hack, even though the material may be deemed hackneyed by some.
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
I'm sorry I own the Oxford English Dictionary and not Random House. I'm sorrow Merriam-Webster online was the source for my quote, and not Random House.
Let me put this simply: All ducks are birds, but not all birds are ducks. All magicians who present tired, overused material are hacks. But not all hacks present tired and overused material. The meaning of hack you mention IS a valid meaning. But there are other valid meanings, and ones that several other people on this thread have confirmed. The mini OED I used also confirms the derivation of the words to be the same. (And even though we both have relied on dictionaries, print and online, any scholar will tell you that unless you are using an unabridged dictionary, you are not getting the full story. They will also tell you that usage determines correctness, and the fact that several performers who move around in the real entertainment business confirm the definition offered to be accurate - that says more than any abbreviated online-dictionary search will.) So, when I walk out of the Magic Castle Parlour having seen someone do Professor's Nightmare, a bad Bill in Lemon with all the stupid lines, and Banana Bandana - what do I call that guy? I know what I hear him called by people who have been in the business for years. They call him a hack. Are you saying they are wrong? |
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Tom Bartlett Special user Our southern border could use 763 Posts |
Wow! I'm amazed you almost, admitted that there are other ideas and concepts in this world, other than your own, well almost.
One more thing we have all learned, buy reading this thread is, we know, without doubt, who your most all time, most admired person is, YOU! Good day, Tom
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
When did I ever say there was only one meaning? That little number 3 beside the dictionary post was left intentionally. I even agree with Will on multiple meanings.
It is clear you only want to see what you want to see. And for some reason, you don't want to see that there are people out there doing tired over used material, and that people in this world refer to them as hacks. Maybe that hits a sore spot, I don't know. Do you have the temerity to say that everyone who uses the word in that manner is wrong, even though they are established performers in the world of comedy, cruise ships, and theaters? Or do you have the temerity to assert that there are no negative feelings in the entertainment world expressed toward people who use the same tired, old and over used lines. You write well, so I don't think you are a stupid person; clearly there must be a reason you refuse to acknowledge that when people call a magician a hack they are talking about someone using tired, old, and stale material. Why are you unwilling to accept reality? |
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Tom Bartlett Special user Our southern border could use 763 Posts |
Brad,
I never disagreed, that sometimes the word hack could mean exactly that. You, on the other hand, have admonished and talked down to everyone that has had a difference of opinion. Only now, even slightly, do you admit ‘hack’ could mean anything else. You too are obviously are educated, well read, and have a vast knowledge of a great many things. That is why, I earlier in this thread, I suggested you read: “How to Win Friends & Influence People” by Dale Carnegie. It was not to be humorous or sarcastic. I think it would help more than you realize. If you do read it and apply it, maybe a famous magician will hire you to do research more than once. Best wishes and good luck Tom
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-02-07 16:11, Tom Bartlett wrote: Physician heal thyself? Once again, you prove that a lack of knowledge of the facts seldom gets in the way of one's blind beliefs. |
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P.T. Murphy Loyal user 224 Posts |
Brad I am curious... Please humor me if you have a few more posts in you.
If I am a musician and I hear a piece of music I want to perform and I learn that piece of music by ear, as music is best when taken in aurally, is that wrong by your standards? Since magic is best when taken in with the eyes and I see Dai Vernon perform the Cups and Balls and I like it and decide to learn in from a video or from others who can teach me...is that wrong? I am confused by your posts. Maybe it is the number of words you use to try and explain yourself? Can you in a simple sentence state your case? I admit I am a little behind the Eight Ball at times and I may not have gotten the whole idea of this thread...please excuse me if I have missed the point. Thanks. Posted: Feb 12, 2007 4:21pm ----------------------------------------- Some of these posts remind me of a wonderful quote: “Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.” ---Albert Einstein
P.T. Murphy
www.ptmurphy.com |
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johnnyimpossible Loyal user Omaha, Ne 244 Posts |
You know, maybe some or all of us are taking this thing a little too personally. Who cares if there are hacks. They make themselves look foolish if they totally copy other people's material.
If everybody followed perfect ethics, I bet we wouldn't have all of the variations of effects we have. It's not a perfect world. Deal with it. I'm not going to let hacking ruin my day. This thread is getting quite boring. Let me guess... the next thread will be someone stating blah blah blah that we've read blah blah blah amount of times, and of course we will get blah blah blah from old faithful in this post. Sorry if I am insulting, but blah blah to you to! Blah! BTW, if I were to keep it intelligent, then I would sound like blah blah some more. Got it Blah? |
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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts |
Blah blah blah that we've read blah blah blah amount of times, and of course we will get blah blah blah from old faithful in this post. Sorry if I am insulting, but blah blah to you to! Blah! BTW, if I was to keep it intelligent, then I would sound like blah blah some more. Got it Blah?
Seems some of my best material was taken from this thread. I suppose some hack couldn't handle it..... Anyway, still is a stupid argument, still will end unresolved, still will continue with Brad assuming he has some power of perception of law and ethics that everyone must follow. Still will not be accepted by anyone who really has a knowledge of magics history, as well as it's present. Prove to me you do only original work, that you had/have never seen anyone else do and I will believe you are not a hack. You, of course could not. No one could. I love the concept "For those that keep arguing this point, I would suggest you are most likely not a full time performer. If you were, you would be very aware of the concept of “Hack” and “Hack material”. Even though there are full time performers who blow holes all through this theory. And, about the whole "You doth protest too much" thing. That is certainly hackish. Although I see on person in this particular thread that has inundated it with long boring protests, perhaps he "Doth protest too much", as another seems to have joined the individual, perhaps you should consider why you are protesting so much. Especially considering your condemnations are absolutely wrong.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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P.T. Murphy Loyal user 224 Posts |
It is obvious to anybody with an ounce of sense that certain people's posts on this thread are rather "manic".
There are those of us who seek the truth, knowing full well that "truth" is an elusive little beast. Then there are those who really believe that they "tell" the truth. An interesting word "tell". It can mean several things. I am sure somebody will post the most fitting definition here on this thread. To tell the truth indicates to me that the teller of truth is either a) In touch with some divine cosmic force that communicates only through them OR b) Has suffered damage to the insula when Big Brother planted the tracking device in their brain.
P.T. Murphy
www.ptmurphy.com |
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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-02-13 08:58, P.T. Murphy wrote: That is my only point, well put. There is fact, there is opinion. They are different. Opinion: Use of an effect that is published, exactly as it is published, due to seeing another magician do it is wrong. Fact: I believe use of an effect that is published, exactly as it is published, due to seeing another magician do it is wrong. While our opinions may be based on experience that is greater than anyone else, it remains your opinion. the only way to make it factual it is to point to the fact that is your belief.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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johnnyimpossible Loyal user Omaha, Ne 244 Posts |
Josh, you are a brave one to post after what I said. I got a lot of respect for you on that. I think you've made some pretty good points. I'm not as eloquent of a speaker as some are in here, so I'll let you word savvy individuals make the fine points. I just tell it like it is. Blah Blah! He he he!
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Caliban Special user 727 Posts |
Is it only me who finds it amusingly ironic that this thread is currently next door to a thread about how great the Banana/Bandana trick is?
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P.T. Murphy Loyal user 224 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-02-14 05:23, Caliban wrote: Now THAT is funny! To paraphrase the lads in Spinal Tap: "It puts things into perspective...too much 'freaking' perspective!"
P.T. Murphy
www.ptmurphy.com |
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Bill Ligon Inner circle A sure sign of a misspent youth: 6437 Posts |
Yes, 'tis funny, indeed!
Wishing Good Taste in all things, Bill
Author of THE HOLY ART: Bizarre Magick From Naljorpa's Cave. NOW IN HARDCOVER! VIEW: <BR>www.lulu.com/content/1399405 ORDER: http://stores.lulu.com/naljorpa
<BR>A TASSEL ON THE LUNATIC FRINGE |
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Eric Lott New user Michigan 85 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-02-14 05:23, Caliban wrote: This may sound like I'm being sarcastic, but I promise you I'm not. Am I hack because I perform the Vanishing Bandana? Is Copperfield a hack or is he took someone else’s idea and changed it up a bit? I perform the VB and put the banana in my wallet instead of a hank, am I a hack? Or have I once again missed the point entirely? |
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Tom Bartlett Special user Our southern border could use 763 Posts |
Eric Lott,
You must direct your questions only to the great and powerful truthteller, no other opinion is acceptable.
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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