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Flec Special user UK 585 Posts |
I have recently read Ammar's stratergies for 'negotiating Higher Performance Fee's' and he talks about upselling your act. I don't want to disclose his technique, but I'm sure many of you know it. Martin Sanderson mentions it on "The Business" dvd, and I've heard a lot of other people mention it aswell.
My question is, I perform for Mary for £300 with no upsell. But when Mary's brother books me, I charge £300, then manage to upsell and get a total of £450. Someones going to get upset here...won't they? I understand the princible that Ammar uses, but don't want to try it out just yet. If your work comes from word of mouth....then perhaps during that conversation that Mary referred you to her brother, she would have also said "you should hire mr magic, he charges £300" for example. On the fone you may agree a price, and then say "I charge (x) for travel" but they may say "Well Mary said your travelling was included in the price?" and to make it worse....if you get to the gig, Mary might say "I got the same performance for £150 less" This is from a close up magicians point of view, but I guess it applies to stand up acts aswell. |
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Neale Bacon Inner circle Burnaby BC Canada 1775 Posts |
Upselling usually means you have added on services so if one person pays for a "basic" party and the next person is sold on the "deluxe" party, it would cost more.
You have to have a real reason for upselling. For example, you may charge extra for balloon animals or goodie bags.
Neale Bacon and his Crazy Critters
Burnaby BC Canada's Favourite Family Ventriloquist www.baconandfriends.com |
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TheDean Inner circle Reno, Nevada 2164 Posts |
Neale nailed it... MORE VALUE for the increased reward.
You can 'up-sell' added value to the package. Travel is an 'ad-on', NOT an up-sell anyway. Up-sell by: Adding more, different, or bigger magic. Adding more "show"... time, props, livestock, dancers, etc. Adding Lights and/or sound or other support. Adding close-up during hospitality before or after the show. Adding simple tricks (or any added value product/solution) as a gift for each guest Adding more and different talent/services. (coordination, others talent like character artists... etc) On and On and On and On...you get the idea. Hope that helps. I am at your service and In HIS Service, Deano <><
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success! "Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…" (*Marketing Doctor) |
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SpellbinderEntertainment Inner circle West Coast 3519 Posts |
All right,
I know there are a million marketing ploys and techniques to up price by upping perceived value or upgrading product, I’ve been around the block. However, I want my business dealings on a human level, person to person, I truly believe the old slogan “make a friend to make a sale”. Therefore I do no “upsell” or play games with my clients. My rates are my rates, they are good solid prices, and I’m comfortable working for the amounts I set. If they request, a longer show, or extra customization, or added illusions with assistants, or there is significant travel required, then I have set rates for these categories. The bottom line, I offer what I offer, I am well paid for these offerings, I charge my chosen rate, and if they ever compare notes later, they will see no disparity, favoritism, or forced artificial upsells. OK, now slam me back…. to get in the last word if you want. Magically, Walt |
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Neale Bacon Inner circle Burnaby BC Canada 1775 Posts |
Actually Walt, I agree. I have set fees for my standard birthday show and my deluxe birthday show. My "regular non-birthday show" has a fee and that show fits almost anywhere (festivals, fairs, picnics etc).
I still wanted to last word (for the moment)
Neale Bacon and his Crazy Critters
Burnaby BC Canada's Favourite Family Ventriloquist www.baconandfriends.com |
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Al Angello Eternal Order Collegeville, Pa. USA 11045 Posts |
Flec
Are you an entertainer, or a used car salesman? Al Angello
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
http://www.juggleral.com http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/ "Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone" |
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TheDean Inner circle Reno, Nevada 2164 Posts |
Calm down brother... no one is slamming anyone here and there is no need to be defensive. Honestly no need to get excited about share that you simply don’t want to agree with… fine, but no need to get mad or ill spirited. No one is suggesting anything against you, each are just sharing our own perspectives just like you are… it really is OK my friend.
Sure, to each our own experience and opinions, but that is what his place is about my friend. No one reasonable expects that “just cuz we post” that everyone will automatically share the same perspective based on each life experience and we share accordingly. It is perfectly OK to have differing point of view and experience… please, no need to take offence here, OK? As it has been said: “It is Perfectly OK to AGREE To Disagree, Agreeably” around here with out getting hot under that collar AT anyone. It’s called adult conversation… we don’t HAVE-TO agree to get along. – Make sense? To the POINT of this discussion: => Neither did ANYONE suggest that anyone “do anything ‘forced, artificial’ or unethical in any way.” Not sure how you jumped to conclusion out of THIS discussion so far. - - Please do us all a favor; don’t LOOK for problems that simply do not exist. For this discussion, it is perfectly normal, ethical and common-place in business to be completely compensated and rewarded MORE for adding more value in any product or service solution situation. This is NOT just some” marketing 'ploy' or 'technique” as was suggested. Even YOU noted this everyday fact in your post about your very own pricing structure and system. The funny thing is, as I see it we once again AGREE. (Which confuses me even more, but so it is…) Certainly it is TRUE, as with ANY business, perfectly normal, natural & HUMAN to get more for an illusion show for a corporate roll-out than it may be for strolling close-up during a cocktail event. Nothing in-human or un-friendly about that… just ha facts maam, just the facts! Show business, as in life, some thing cost MORE than others! Certainly a BMW cost more than a VW Bug… (For example.) and still, each only have 4 wheels, an engine and a place for people to ride! Each get us from point A to point B and so on. - - YES a BMW is a better product, (as there are in show business) but the PRINCIPLE is the same. It’s no big mystery that some of us each get more than others here and such is life and business success. That does NOT make it some “Marketing Ploy or Technique”. That just makes it LIFE. (and certainly nothing to be upset about.) If I want the ‘special undercoating’ on my new car, I pay MORE for it. If I want in-dash navigation, tucked leather bucket seats, I pay more, OR as we all know, it could well be INCLUDED in the price of the car, but it is ALSO true that just because it may not already have all the extra features and benefits I want, does in no-way make it some ‘evil marketing ploy’ for me to WANT, and then PAY for that up-grade in product or service… THAT is all we are talking about HERE as I see it anyway. I could be wrong, or maybe I missed the point of the original poster entirely, but it ‘seams’ rather simple and obvious (and non confrontational) as I see it anyway. Am I wrong? - - I WANT to understand your point of view cuz I am not at all sure why you are getting frustrated here my friend. As far as I can tell, no one is against you or slamming you in any way, shape or form. Help a brother out… Truly, I am here to assist, support and encourage you and your success! (As I am with all of you here…) PLEASE let me know how I may better do just that, OK? Have a blessed day! I am at your service and In HIS Service, Deano <><
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success! "Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…" (*Marketing Doctor) |
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Skip Way Inner circle 3771 Posts |
I think Michael's techniques were aimed more at the upper tier level of our performance art - i.e., night clubs, comedy clubs, theatres, corporate gigs and such where fees are routinely...and tightly...negotiated. Setting your fees in stone at this level can cost you a fortune. There's a world of difference between performing for the Kiwanis fundraiser in the local theatre, the classic Art Center stage at SuperDuper University and the MGM Grand in Vegas, after all. Refusing to negotiate will leave you with fees that may be perceived by them as being too high, by you as too low or everyone will get the idea that you're set in your ways and hard to "deal with."
I do not believe that his negotiating technique is suitable to or appropriate for the home birthday party market. Set a fee that you're comfortable with and stick to it. There are some excellent threads in the Café that touch on the hows and whys of doing this. Good question, Flec. I hope you eventually reach the point where these skills will come profitably into play! Skip
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.
Magic Youth Raleigh - RaleighMagicClub.org |
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TheDean Inner circle Reno, Nevada 2164 Posts |
Yeah... what he said!
Hehehehe! Great post (as always) SkipMeister!
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success! "Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…" (*Marketing Doctor) |
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Al Angello Eternal Order Collegeville, Pa. USA 11045 Posts |
Dean
I have been around here long enough to know that you are the voice of wisdom, but I firmly believe in KISS. Al Posted: Jan 5, 2007 4:00pm Dean You, and Skip are the voice of widsom. Al
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
http://www.juggleral.com http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/ "Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone" |
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Skip Way Inner circle 3771 Posts |
I FORGOT (Curse this disorganized brain! ) to mention that while Walt has a VERY valid point ("I'm an entertainer who deals in being trusted and liked, not a salesman to be feared and suspected."), Neale and Dean also have valid points. You CAN add additional income to your parties through upselling Premium services. Party gift bags, party photos, a magic pinata, facepainting, balloon sculptures, party game leadership, karaoke...There are number of great ideas out there for adding extra icome to the basic party fee.
This way, when Mary tells Pierre (her brother, go figure) that she only paid 300 simoleans for her party, you can point out to Pierre that she didn't order the Premium party games and karaoke services at the breathtakingly low price of only 150 extra simoleans! Poor Mary. As Dean said, (It's DANG scary how much alike we think...and we could DANG near pass for twins. <Shudder!>) it depends on YOUR personality and YOUR style. Some of us (like me) aren't made of that salesman stuff. It may come natural to you. If so...USE it! Pull in those extra bucks. If not...knock 'em dead with your talents and fame and fortune may still find you. Very wise and experienced people here in the Café...and you're rapidly becoming one of them, Flec! Skip
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.
Magic Youth Raleigh - RaleighMagicClub.org |
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Flec Special user UK 585 Posts |
Ammar uses the example of a painter selling a picture, with the flinch technique. He gives a price of $100 and if they flinch you say "well that includes frame, packaging, etc etc." If they don't flinch then you say "Well the frame is an extra $10, and packaging is $5" and you could go on and on.
I think I agree with Skip, maybe it is aimed at the higher level. But then Paul Daniels says the same thing about childrens parties. If they flinch you say "that includes party bags for all the kids aswell." But if they don't flinch at your price you say "don't forget I also offer party bags at £2 a child." In Paul Daniels's case, surley if you charge £200 for a party with bags included, and then do another party for £250 with the bags included they would find out? And Al Angelo, No I'm not a used car salesman lol, I just want to earn a little more cash than what I'm doing already! I'm not trying to be sneaky and seedy, and I'm not tryin to act like a used car salesman, I'm tryin to put these techniques into practise without hurting anyone. At the moment I am performing at a lot of weddings during the summer, and this time of year I am getting ready for all my marketing concerning that. Thought now would be a good tim to start using this technique! |
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TheDean Inner circle Reno, Nevada 2164 Posts |
THANKS guys...
Honestly, I think that we ALL are saying very much the SAME THING using different words. FIRST our job is NOT so much to 'sell' anything anyway! (let alone magic...) Our job is to "Provide Success SOLUTION Outcomes" for our relationships. Anyone who thinks we are selling (or up-selling) magic, or cars or insurance, or anything other than our honest ability to offer and then DELIVER on the most pressing wants, needs and desires of our buying re-elationships may wish to reexamine what they are doing in this business. Too, I am NOT upset, concerned, frustrated (Anything like this...) with anyone here, just want us to UNDERSTAND (Don’t have to necessarily AGREE - Hehehe!) and respect each perspective... that’s all. I Apologize if I left any other impression. (This “typing” this is not always the best either… Ha!) I AM at YOUR Service and In HIS Service, Dean <><
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success! "Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…" (*Marketing Doctor) |
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Skip Way Inner circle 3771 Posts |
No doubt about it...it's a great concept in theory, Flec. But, as you and Walt both pointed out, when word gets around...and it WILL get around as parents compare notes with one another...that your fees vary, I believe you are going to lose business. All it takes is one dissatisfied person who tells ten other people...and suddenly, you're someone who can't be "trusted." Their perspective, not yours or mine...and THEIR perspective is the one that puts money in our pockets...or doesn't.
I personally believe. like Walt, that it is better to deal straight up with everyone. Set a flat basic fee...then offer premium services for those extra dollars. Besides, this method is a WHOLE lot less stressful on you and me. Good luck in whatever path you take. Skip
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.
Magic Youth Raleigh - RaleighMagicClub.org |
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TheDean Inner circle Reno, Nevada 2164 Posts |
Update per additional postings:
The FLINCH as Ammar descries it... so where it is true that I am NOT a big fan of THAT sort of (what "I" view as... again, MY opinion.) unethical sales. Where I agree that is important to be educated in the "Success Support and Solutions" arts, I also believe (Remember, my B.S. – Belief System.) that is MORE important to create an ‘honest’ work environment and an ‘indelible trust bond’ with our buying re-elationships, and our aim is to SERVE them, not manipulate or over-SELL them... make sense? Again, it very much looks like we all seemingly agree on this point! Not to worry Flec, it will take some time to LEARN how to best support and serve your business relationships, but keep at it, ask great questions (like the one you asked!) and continue to invest (Time, Talent & Treasure) into your success and service education as you are! GREAT discussion! I am at your service and In HIS Service, Deano <>< Nice job Fleck and all! Posted: Jan 5, 2007 5:26pm AL: I'm not sure I want to KISS you anyway! (Hehehehehe!) SKIP: TWINS??? Two of either ofus is more than this world should ever have to stand! (HA!) Thanks again guys!
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success! "Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…" (*Marketing Doctor) |
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mota Inner circle 1658 Posts |
To make a long story short you will sell more with a three-tiered price structure.
Example: Basic show $100 Show with big finale $125 Show with big finale and magic bags $150 Given this format most people will pick the $125 show, with most of the rest taking the $100 show. If you just list the first two shows you will sell far less than if you just offer one show. If you list four or more options you will again lose sales. Offer one show or three. There is much research behind this but that is a more academic answer than appropriate here. Just remember the three-tiered price structure. |
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Rock_Slatestone Regular user Been Here A While But My Post Count Is 120 Posts |
Hey Everybody,
While we are entertainers it is important to remember that we are business people as well. You want to make a living right....of course or you wouldn't charge a fee. I am just getting back into doing birthday parties. Having add-ons is just a way of giving options to your client. Options mean they can build a party that meets their needs, including their pocket book. Have a happy new year, Steven |
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SpellbinderEntertainment Inner circle West Coast 3519 Posts |
There is a distinct difference between up-grades and an up-sell.
You may wish to let a client know they have entertainment options, but that does not mean you need to use a "technique" to close a high sale. Truly meeting the client's individual entertainment needs, being equal and fair in your pricing and service, grows your business as well as your credibility. I'm a full-time business person, and a full-time artist. And doing things the way I do has evolved into a very comfortable lifestyle. Magically, Walt |
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Royston South Regular user Jersey Channel Islands 137 Posts |
Hi Guys,
Good post Flec maybe this is a little of track but I'm just doing my new web site and I'm not to worried "I think" about putting all my rates on it with all the up sells, it's always bugged me when looking for a service on the web they promise they can do this and that it's looking great-BUT HOW MUCH- I have to contact them, then there's lots of ums and ars, ( that thought if you have to ask you can't afford comes to mind ) there seems to be so much secrecy about prices and I don't know why. Where selling a service, I go to a restaurant look at the menu looks good-no price! what comes to mind? Are a lot of us really worried we may lose that extra 100 or that we don't look as successful as our competition "LOOK AS SUCCESSFUL" I think we should know our worth. Good one Flec, Royston |
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SpellbinderEntertainment Inner circle West Coast 3519 Posts |
Hi Royston,
You are right, a lot of "ums" and "urs" going on out there, not good! I have my price guide tacked up right by the phone, and as soon as I know what they're looking for, I know if I fit their needs, and can quote a firm price immediately! It's honest and forthright of you to put your rates online, however, if you post a price they'll hold you to it as a “published” rate, and if they need something different or more involved your sort of stuck. (Lots of Sarbanes-Oxley / fair-trade issues in this day and age). Also, many people *think* they are just shopping by price… but how many times have you intended to order chicken and ordered steak. So they might pass up your show as "too little" or "too much" for their budget. The reason I want to talk to someone, is to first see if they are as serious about their entertainment as I am, and then to let them know what I can do for their event, and what differentiates me from other performers, they may like what I have, or I could be all wrong for their event, so price is not a question until there is a good *match*. Then less honest magicians in your area, and there are some in most areas, may just *cut* their rates a tad to have an edge. And the client may not know if you are as good, the same, or better. That's why it's always safe to work with the client… that "is there a match" question again, and if there is, you may be in their budget, or they may even skimp on the floral centerpieces to afford you, because your the *right* magician for them! These are my thoughts and how I work, however it may work fine for you to post your rates. Magically, Walt |
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