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Eddini_81976
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz8uN-eTL6Q

I'm just getting into Derren Brown, I mean I've seen his name so much but now it's like my eyes have opened up to how amazing he is. You all probably know him best. In this clip, was this all in "Good Fun", or was he really making a joke out Guy Hollingworth (Whom is a great Magician BTW)? Is Guy mad at him...etc? This was soooo funny though...HaHaHa.

On a serious note, I'm getting from NLP, you can almost make anyone do, choose, or think of what you want them to think of, am I right? I think he blows Criss Angel, and David Blaine out of the water. Here are just some clips I thought was just so amazing, and Brilliant, and I truly believes he uses no stooges, like I believe Criss Angel, and to a much lesser extent David Blaine does. (BTW, I like David Blaine better). I also from the below clips learned a lot. I hope the clips I'm putting up isn't exposure. Derren is actually explaining the techniques to laymen. If you are new to Derren Brown, get ready to look at Mentalism from a whole new perspective. I'm now getting all his stuff...HaHaHa, books, ect.


Okay I'll post my favorite stunt he does. This is Mind Blowing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5DB5crSsrA

(That's just ***k*** awesome!!!)


Now this one is just intense, I've never seen anything like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylAHWVuPNus


Okay I don't want to just put up all his clips, but this clips is absolutely insane. Is this for real???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwthqRJ1Khg


Those are just a few. His Oil & Water, I don't get. I did not see any false counting or moves. You'll see it if you search his stuff, and his piece on conversion, and the living and dead test with a real undertaker is scary. I know he's not Psychic but can NLP, really be that effective?

Okay you experts on Derren Brown, does he teach these specific stunts in his books...etc.? I'm just baffled and I'm going to try some of this. Any feedback appreciated. Thanks, Ed, (Eddini).
"Treat Others As You'd Want To Be Treated" - Jesus Christ
edh
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I am skeptical about the NLP stuff. I don't have any background in this so this is just my personal observation. If it can be done as shown I definitely would like to get into this. I think it would interesting and fun.
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ChristopherM
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Hey Ed, and welcome to the wonderful, wacky and original world of 'the other DB'...Derren Brown!

Here are my thoughts on what you said and asked above:

Derren and Guy are great friends in real life. This was a parody made completely in jest, and Guy finds/found it funny (and quite accurate...!)

Be a lot more sceptical of NLP. Derren himself is very sceptical of it, and has NEVER claimed to have used it. You certainly cannot "almost make anyone do anything". Far from it. The statement made by Derren at the beginning of his TV shows is 100% true and took a long time and much effort to piece together. He uses no stooges, you are correct. Make sure your definition of a stooge is concurrent with his, of course.

The clips: BMX Bike - cool eh?
Russian Roulette - very fun to watch it Live. The publicity surrounding it elevated his status by a huge amount. It was his first TV 'Special' which comprised a finale stunt, so to speak. It also included some other very good (better IMO) mentalism routines.

Here are some of my own thoughts: he's a great showman. He has a very appealing and original premise. The 'explanations' he offers are, as a 'trademark', to be taken with a pinch of salt. In his own words, he's always honest about his dishonesty. The creative/consultant team backing includes Luke Jermay, Andy Nyman, Anthony Owen and Andrew O'Connor amongst others. This shortened list already screams of quality (although Objective Productions did put out a show on UK's Channel 4 called Dirty Tricks, which was terrible...another story).

Cheers

Chris

PS - this Post fuses Magic, Suggestion, Psychology, Misdirection and Showmanship. I achieve all the results you see through a varied mixture of those techniques. At no point are Actors or Stooges used in the Post.

[FORGET]
Eddini_81976
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Thanks. To me a stooge is someone who is in on a effect in ANYWAY, such as the "Instant Stooge", Pre-Show work, and a stooge used to fool everyone else themselves not quite knowing how part of the effect works. To me that's my definition. Osterlind is one of my favorite all time Mentalist, and I agree with his take on stooges. It lowers the value of your show as he states. This isn't about stooges though.

Really he doesn't use NLP. I was reading the responses people wrote to those clips, and many said he was "Highly Trained" in NLP. In the "Envelope Game" he even uses NLP, and even TELL THEM as he goes along !!! I really don't see him using the "traditional tools" (Impression devices, the Center Tear, Peeks...ect) of Mentalism. To me what got out opf it, he uses NLP, Subtle Hypnosis, Suggestion, and basic Mentalism Psychology somehow. that's how I'm getting he does it though I can't put my finger on it. I've also looked on youtube, on NLP by itself, and to me it's a form of Nypnosis/Suggestion, am I right. Here is a clip I learned A LOT from. It's awesome. I actually on the phone tried it to my Mom to see if see scratched her head. Shoot youtube is on downtime.

Okay it was a 5 minute clip, NOT of mentalism, but a Hypnotherapist did a talk on NLP "Voice Analog" I think. Okay you put 3-4 KEY words in a paragraph, and SUBTLEY you raise you voice on those words. Here's the example he used. The 3 key words are 1)Scratch, 2)Your, 3)Head. The paragraph and this is simplistic goes something like this.

As I was walking down the street I noticed a car with a big SCRATCH on it. I kept thinking to myself that I was hoping it was not YOUR car. Anyway I continued and all of a sudden my HEAD started to ache as I do (in real life) get Migraines.

So this Hypnotherapist said now that example is kinda short and a little obvious. (This guy has other vidoes too). He said to go into bars and go up to people and just in conversation, use those 3 words in a phrase. He said that 30% of people WILL scratch their heads. So for fun I used that paragraph almost word for word (though it didn't make sense since my Mom has never had a liscence, hence never owned a car). Afterwords I asked if she scratched her head. She said "No"....lol, but as the guy said you gotta be more subtle. Also I've been for about a year wanted to get into Hypnosis a little bit. I saw video clips too of NLP used to help people lose weight, and overcome phobias. So in essence, thanks to Derren Brown, I'm on a kick to learn NLP and see if I can actually make people do what I want (harmless stuff of course for fun). I've come to the conclusion especially after watching his "Conversion By Touch", that this ability is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS in the WRONG HANDS, and if it's possible if Derren Brown "Has Too Much Power"...if you get what I mean. Not just him, but anyone who's very good at it...lol. I understand he's a great guy, but you get what I mean right? Look at the "Russian Scam" clip, that's just scary and insane. I KNOW he only use his "powers" for good though.

So in essense I think NLP is very real, and now I want to learn all about it. I think there is a book called "NLP For Dummies", at least that's what a dealer at Hank Lee's told me as we discussed the topic. There are seminars too, and I want to NOW buy both of Derren's books so I can learn his techniques. I'm just in just a state of "AWE" right now after watching his clips, especially since I know he uses no stooges. I mean through NLP, he made a guy want a bike. How cool is that. I'm mostly a Card Magician / Mentalist, and while I do private functions my main venue is Street Magic / Mentalism. I do Metal Bending too thanks to Banachek's awesome tape. So basically I want to learn all I can about Derren Brown, and his methods, and be able to do what he does, like using NLP / Suggestion, and get people to do WHAT I WANT THEM TOO. (For good of copurse like Derren does)...lol. I'm so mesmorized.

Okay as a aside I LOVE his Russian Roullette and d*** that was intense. Now for that particular effect, I highle doubt and dare I say KNOW he DIDN'T use NLP, Suggestion, Hypnosis...ect. Look I know we're not suppose to try to openly guess and voice methods. All I can say, is I think it was what WAS under the table. I mean I've watched it, and there's NO OTHER way. It HAS to do with that. The guy wasn't a stooge, and I think it was a "Legitmate Test" as well. Not in the sense he really put his life on the line, but in the sense there was no stooges or T.V. effects. I apologize if I said too much and will admit I know VERY little about guns and the methods for this effect. For a safe "Bullet Catch" I STRONGLY reccomend Craig Karges "Connection" notes for his method. I think his method is pretty safe. Okay enough on that. Again, I wish I had that URL for the Hypnotherapist explaining NLP a little bit. More feedback appreciated, Thanks, Ed, (Eddini).
"Treat Others As You'd Want To Be Treated" - Jesus Christ
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2007-01-11 03:27, Eddini_81976 wrote:... I think NLP is very real, and now I want to learn all about it. I think there is a book called "NLP For Dummies", at least that's what a dealer at Hank Lee's told me as we discussed the topic....


You walked into a magic shop to ask about NLP. ROFL that is so funny!

You can use the google search engine and get some of the basics including the "presuppositions" and discussion of some aspects of the field.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
bsears
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Mike Close was just commenting in the "special guests" area about how unentertaining magic like this is. I have to agree.
Magicray80
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What can you really say? The man is Really out there. Good stuff, thanks for the clips.
"And What Not!!!" paisa23 you know what i mean.
Magicsquared
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As a long-time fan of Derren's and having had a couple of occasions to pick his brain, I can tell you that saying, "I saw Derren and now I'm convinced of the power of NLP," is a lot like saying, "I saw the Jojo the Great and now I'm convinced of the power of woofle dust."

You're confusing his presentation with his methods.
Metius
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Quote:
On 2007-01-11 22:04, Magicsquared wrote:
As a long-time fan of Derren's and having had a couple of occasions to pick his brain, I can tell you that saying, "I saw Derren and now I'm convinced of the power of NLP," is a lot like saying, "I saw the Jojo the Great and now I'm convinced of the power of woofle dust."

You're confusing his presentation with his methods.


Second that. And that's the demonstration that magic it's not about how many DVDs you've got...
Eppure una volta avetti sette in latino...(G.Marziano)
ChristopherM
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It's a great feeling to be in awe of a talented performer. Derren has never himself claimed to use NLP. He is wary of how much even a concentrated NLP course can actually deliver, and in no way endorses study of it. Part of the reason Russian Roulette caused so much controversy is because of the later revelations by Jersey Police as to the nature of the stunt - do read into it. For excellent reading (before you buy Pure Effect/Absolute Magic), check out the interview with Jamy Ian Swiss on his (Jamy's) website, from Genii Magazine. In the Preface to Derren's books, he warns the reader that the methods disclosed in Pure Effect are not what he uses today at all. Absolute Magic contains no explanations of methods, but is along the lines of Darwin Ortiz' Strong Magic - a theory book as to amplification of the magic effect. Remember that many of the tricks shown on the TV just will not work in everyday life. It's partly the very fact that there is a TV camera in your face that some of these things actually work. Don't forget how many times the 'Russian scam' failed on people - at the end of that episode, the team deliberately left in an attempt which completely bombed.

Interesting that you haven't seen him use 'traditional tools of mentalism'. He is listed under Fabrice Delaure's clients; also, check out 'The Gathering' for some effects which are very similar in nature/origin to some very traditional mentalism routines. 2006's Tour show (Something Wicked...) also contains things like an ESP test (with Bicycle backed playing cards), a Chair Prediction built into a very nice theatrical piece, a routine many on here are comparing to Kurotsuke, an animal prediction, a newspaper trick, and even two sideshow stunts.

It's great that you're interested in NLP, but don't expect too much of it; many experts don't see much, if any, merit at all in it. To many people it's just a pipedream, pop psychology or psychobabble. For Derren, it's proven to be a nice veneer and a vague (again, NEVER explicit) presentational reference.

For a little balance, you may like to read: http://www.simonsingh.net/Derren_Brown_Article.html

PS - your definition of a stooge is not totally concurrent with his. Look into the telephone box stunt(s), 'Lift' and 'Reminiscence' if you can...
gdw
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Where can we read what the Jersey Police said about the Roulette?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
ChristopherM
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gdw
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Thanks.

I still don't see how they could have thought there was no risk with a blank. Even without the wad in them, the shear preasure created by the charge is enouh to cause sever damage, most likely lethal, at that range.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
ChristopherM
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This is true, but the UK public don't think like that. The audience was misled into believing that the round was real, and so to hear that blanks were used instead did not reverberate well at all, and tainted the entire 'genuine' image that the production team were trying to create in the first place. This in turn led to many simply branding the entire thing a hoax or a set-up, which, in the minds of some of the general public, was a logical extrapolation to make. As stated above, the resulting coverage caused notoriety, and only worked to his advantage in the long run. Now, it's all water under the bridge, and Trick of the Mind Series 4 is just around the corner, airing on Channel 4 in just a few months' time. Good luck to him!
gdw
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Man I wish I could find them [his shows] here in Canada.

Also, I don't think they were decieved at all because what I believe they said was that it was a live round, and a blank is still live I believe.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
edh
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Gdw, I recall an actor on a T.V. set had placed a revolver with blanks loaded in it to his head and pulled the trigger as a practical joke. He did not survive. The pressure can indeed be deadly.
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Eddini_81976
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Quote:
On 2007-01-11 11:32, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-01-11 03:27, Eddini_81976 wrote:... I think NLP is very real, and now I want to learn all about it. I think there is a book called "NLP For Dummies", at least that's what a dealer at Hank Lee's told me as we discussed the topic....

You walked into a magic shop to ask about NLP. ROFL that is so funny!

You can use the Google search engine and get some of the basics including the "presuppositions" and discussion of some aspects of the field.

Actually I go to Hank Lee's a lot in the summer. Great service and people, so I'll hang in there flipping through books, trading secrets, seeing the new stuff for like 2-3 hours they don't mind. All I did was mention that I get "Panic Attacks" and the guy suggested NLP, that it might be helpful, and we talked a little bit on Derren Brown.


Quote:
On 2007-01-11 18:15, bsears wrote:
Mike Close was just commenting in the "special guests" area about how unentertaining magic like this is. I have to agree.

I'm not sure which post, but I did go to the post on Street Magic. I like Mike Close a lot and put a lot into his interviews. I was a little offended on what he said about "Street Magicians", like people would view us as Street Panhandlers, and that our patter isn't up to par. Now I'm just talking for me, but I dress well, I have patter for the tricks I do, and people in my town love me. Yes I was once in a documentary called "After Hours In Portsmouth", but in no way is my style a "Photo Shoot". I've been in the same place same time 9 years straight. I have lots of fans and regulars who come to watch me and they bring friends, and I do well in tips. As one person quoted "We know it's Summer when we see you set up out here doing your Magic". Like I said I'm not sure if that was the post you were talking about. Ed, (Eddini).

P.S. I do private parties as well and starting last August I finally got in the yellow pages.


Quote:
On 2007-01-11 22:04, Magicsquared wrote:
As a long-time fan of Derren's and having had a couple of occasions to pick his brain, I can tell you that saying, "I saw Derren and now I'm convinced of the power of NLP," is a lot like saying, "I saw the Jojo the Great and now I'm convinced of the power of woofle dust."

You're confusing his presentation with his methods.

So if I were to say I saw a Hypnotist (a legit one), and said I saw the Great so and so who is a Hypnotist, and then said I'm now a believer in Nypnotism, what's the difference? I don't get it? I do understand that methods and presentation are different. I love his presentations, and whatever his methods are which I believe to me Classic Methods, Hypnotic Suggestion, NLP, and Psychology. How am I confusing them. PM me if you like if your answer will give away too much, Thanks, Ed.
"Treat Others As You'd Want To Be Treated" - Jesus Christ
Jonathan Townsend
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Would it help to know that Derren uses mentalist/magician methods for his performance pieces?

There are discussions about NLP and it's applications online and available via the search engines.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Eddini_81976
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On 2007-01-12 11:14, ChristopherM wrote:
It's a great feeling to be in awe of a talented performer. Derren has never himself claimed to use NLP. He is wary of how much even a concentrated NLP course can actually deliver, and in no way endorses study of it. Part of the reason Russian Roulette caused so much controversy is because of the later revelations by Jersey Police as to the nature of the stunt - do read into it. For excellent reading (before you buy Pure Effect/Absolute Magic), check out the interview with Jamy Ian Swiss on his (Jamy's) website, from Genii Magazine. In the Preface to Derren's books, he warns the reader that the methods disclosed in Pure Effect are not what he uses today at all. Absolute Magic contains no explanations of methods, but is along the lines of Darwin Ortiz' Strong Magic - a theory book as to amplification of the magic effect. Remember that many of the tricks shown on the TV just will not work in everyday life. It's partly the very fact that there is a TV camera in your face that some of these things actually work. Don't forget how many times the 'Russian scam' failed on people - at the end of that episode, the team deliberately left in an attempt which completely bombed.

Interesting that you haven't seen him use 'traditional tools of mentalism'. He is listed under Fabrice Delaure's clients; also, check out 'The Gathering' for some effects which are very similar in nature/origin to some very traditional mentalism routines. 2006's Tour show (Something Wicked...) also contains things like an ESP test (with Bicycle backed playing cards), a Chair Prediction built into a very nice theatrical piece, a routine many on here are comparing to Kurotsuke, an animal prediction, a newspaper trick, and even two sideshow stunts.

It's great that you're interested in NLP, but don't expect too much of it; many experts don't see much, if any, merit at all in it. To many people it's just a pipe dream, pop psychology or psychobabble. For Derren, it's proven to be a nice veneer and a vague (again, never explicit) presentational reference.

For a little balance, you may like to read: http://www.simonsingh.net/Derren_Brown_Article.html

P.S. - your definition of a stooge is not totally concurrent with his. Look into the telephone box stunt(s), 'Lift' and 'Reminiscence' if you can...

Thanks so much. So what is his definition of a Stooge. So the bullets were blanks...rock on. He still would've had to know which one had the blank, and that's why above I offered "vaguely" how I thought he learned that. No I didn't see any of the traditional methods of mentalism, and I got Corinda, Anneman, Maven, Waters, Richardson, Lesley, Karges, Banachek, Busch, and Osterlind, books, and DVD'S. I guess his card tricks and the envelope game I get. How the hell do you explain the conversion, or invisible man though? I'm not surprised he's on Fabrice's list as his stuff is out of this World High Tech, and that might explain some stuff. Darwin Ortiz is actually (as I'm a Card Man too) my top favorite Card Man. I haven't got his book, but I'll get his, and Derren's Stuff. I think all I'm trying to say is "Is there a place I can learn / read, how to do stuff like the BMX, Conversion, Invisible Man, Russian Scam Effects?" Yes or No? I would like to perform them as seen on the clips with my own presentations of course. Also to do so, no I need formal Hypnotic / NLP training to be "that good"? Please PM me if you like. It's NOT that I'm looking for secrets I'm just wondering if it can be learned is all. No offense to you Criss Angel, and to a lesser extent Blaine fans (I'm a Blaine fan myself) but I don't trust the stooge work, editing...etc., that we all know that goes on. I credit them for bringing Magic into people's minds but I'm not thrilled with their techniques...sorry. Now I trust Derren Brown's Techniques. Why I don't know. Should I trust his style, if I don't trust Angel's style for example? Yes or No? I will look into those books plus the gathering, Ed, (Eddini).


Quote:
On 2007-01-14 22:40, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Would it help to know that Derren uses mentalist/magician methods for his performance pieces?

There are discussions about NLP and it's applications online and available via the search engines.

Sure I know he uses those techniques, all I'm saying is that I think and from what I've been told that he's highly trained in NLP, and Hypnosis. I see his Magician techniques in "Smoke" for instance. Here is a clip (I finally got it...lol), on a teacher of Hypnosis on NLP. I hope you like it. Thanks Johnathan, you're knowledgeable and have seen your effects in Magic Magazine. Ed, (Eddini).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc2ebZ9_p3E
"Treat Others As You'd Want To Be Treated" - Jesus Christ
ChristopherM
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Hey Ed,

In short, there is no one 'source' from where you could learn how to 'do' the routines you listed. Please also note that both 'The Gathering' and 'Something Wicked...' shows used entirely 'traditional' magician/mentalist techniques, as do several of the routines on the TV shows. As I stated above, there is a very high risk of failure with some of the routines, such as the Russian Scam. It will not work a lot of the time. Part of the reason that many of the routines are shown on the TV is because they would not work in real life: take the routine where Derren 'makes the sun disappear' for a guy in a desert, showing the TV audience how it works in the process. This would ONLY work on TV. Same goes for his famous 'Zombie Video Game' stunt, 'The Heist', bits of 'Seance', and several other tricks. Remember that the TV camera both empowers and limits - and has an OFF button. Think about it this way: for his nightly shows, Derren does NONE of the routines you mention in your list. He does bulletproofed, 'traditional', well-known plots/effects, mostly with superbly original presentation and good showmanship. For a definition of a stooge, look it up in a dictionary, not a magic book. Please remember that Derren stipulates that he is not a hypnotist, and that he has no background in NLP. You may already be aware of the 'promise' Luke Jermay offers his audiences. Bear in mind that it is Luke, NOT Derren, making such a promise. Lastly, the UK public were specifically told on the live Russian Roulette show that Derren was not using blanks. It is because of this (lie) that there was so much backlash from it. The whole thing was branded fake and criticised by the Press, not only for being in bad taste, but for being a hoax, as I explained above. As I also said above, I preferred the previous 40 minute build-up to the stunt, which showcased several better mentalism routines. Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Chris

PS - He did not 'convert' anybody on the show, Messiah.
PPS - Smoke is lovely, and widely considered to be the strongest routine from Pure Effect.
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