The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » How do Penn and Teller justify exposing illusions? (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3..9~10~11~12~13~14 [Next]
Mr. Mystoffelees
View Profile
Inner circle
I haven't changed anyone's opinion in
3621 Posts

Profile of Mr. Mystoffelees
So, what does it say to you?
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
stoneunhinged
View Profile
Inner circle
3079 Posts

Profile of stoneunhinged
Do you mean Todd's statement? It says that if one is a good magician, the entertainment is the magic itself, rather than something "added on" in a misguided attempt to be "entertaining".
AsL
View Profile
Special user
650 Posts

Profile of AsL
Quote:
On 2009-09-06 12:24, Close.Up.Dave wrote:
Quote:
Yes, they are "using magic" for commercial profit.


So is every other magician in the world when they do a magic show and get paid. P&T simply use the secrets for profit, which ironically magicians all over the world do too. But in that case its magicians selling secrets to other magicians.

What I love about Penn and Teller is they come across as, "Yes we're magicians but we don't take ourselves so seriously." That to me is what makes their show so unique. If you've ever heard Penn or Teller speak they have a lot more intellect and reasoning behind their magic than most of the people in magic today. I understand why their magic isn't for everyone, but I do think it is something that should be appreciated regardless of whether you like it or not.

I hate to break it to everyone but the public doesn't have the greatest view of magic and magicians. You could have the best slieght of hand and amazing effects but people could walk away feeling like you have insulted their intelligence. Obviously not all feel that way, but the name of the game is entertainment and a lot of people miss that aspect of it. Or, people think of magic as something for little kids and that they are above it.

Human beings involve magic in everyday life. Religion, movies, making wishes, daydreaming are all forms of magic that we interact with almost everyday. But, then why are adult audiences harder to get interested in magic? Obviously we as magicians are doing something wrong. I think P&T show adult audiences how they are secretly interested in magic and why it is fun to like magic. It's hard to find a magic act that addresses these aspects of life because magicians are way more interested in showing off what they can do.

Penn and Teller obviously keep entertainment as their first priority. They break the "fourth wall" and invite their audiences to take a different perspective of magic, which I think, lets their audience have more respect for magic. They are nothing like the masked magician, which is all about saying, "haha magician you can't fool me!" They are magicians who are doing a magic act, why would they want to destroy magic? It's funny to think of it like this, but what's the point of having a show if everyone likes it?


After quickly skimming through this topic, I really enjoyed this post...
Mr. Mystoffelees
View Profile
Inner circle
I haven't changed anyone's opinion in
3621 Posts

Profile of Mr. Mystoffelees
Quote:
On 2010-11-29 11:20, stoneunhinged wrote:
Do you mean Todd's statement? It says that if one is a good magician, the entertainment is the magic itself, rather than something "added on" in a misguided attempt to be "entertaining".


Yes, I was asking about the quote in your post. Thanks for your response.

Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
Jack Baines
View Profile
New user
33 Posts

Profile of Jack Baines
Quote:
On 2010-11-29 11:20, stoneunhinged wrote:
Do you mean Todd's statement? It says that if one is a good magician, the entertainment is the magic itself, rather than something "added on" in a misguided attempt to be "entertaining".


Surly though magic can be just one part of a performers entertaining repertoire. And if whatever else is part of that repertoire (not "added in") is successfully entertaining people then it is not misguided, but a good routine which people will enjoy, and therefore the performer is a good performer.

And bare in mind that audiences are intelligent, and want to be entertained. That is why they pay their money.

To me the quote was being sarcastic, mocking an earlier post which discussed magic skill vs. entertainment and took a dim view of people who would rather see a show to be entertained. Todd's statement to me said that obviously no one will want to see a magician, no matter how skilled, if they are not entertaining over another performer who is entertaining, however skilled they may be. And I agree.

I apologise right now if I have misrepresented anyone's views. If I have, please correct me.

Jack.
Mr. Mystoffelees
View Profile
Inner circle
I haven't changed anyone's opinion in
3621 Posts

Profile of Mr. Mystoffelees
On 2009-11-02 08:56, Todd Robbins wrote:
"I HATE those bad magicians that are entertaining. I like those good magicians that are not entertaining. That's what it is all about."

An oversimplification, perhaps, but that seems to leave:

(A) bad magicians who are not entertaining, and
(B) good magicians who are entertaining.

Is this a fair assumption?
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
Pakar Ilusi
View Profile
Inner circle
5715 Posts

Profile of Pakar Ilusi
Here's a question to ponder...

If the Masked Magician was really entertaining, would what he did then be ok?
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
AsL
View Profile
Special user
650 Posts

Profile of AsL
Quote:
On 2010-12-01 06:18, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
Here's a question to ponder...

If the Masked Magician was really entertaining, would what he did then be ok?


I don't think anybody's going to agree with that answer. It's safe to say that he'd be given more credit from magicians than he currently is. If nothing else, we'd all have the "entertainment" process in common....something he lacks with magicians but excels with the lay audience.
Jack Baines
View Profile
New user
33 Posts

Profile of Jack Baines
Quote:
On 2010-12-01 10:42, AsL wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-12-01 06:18, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
Here's a question to ponder...

If the Masked Magician was really entertaining, would what he did then be ok?


I don't think anybody's going to agree with that answer. It's safe to say that he'd be given more credit from magicians than he currently is. If nothing else, we'd all have the "entertainment" process in common....something he lacks with magicians but excels with the lay audience.


But they 'lay audience' are intelligent. And are they not the ones who we are magicians are supposed to entertain? If magicians were only entertaining to other magicians what would be the point? If that's the case they should stick to magic seminars because their clearly not doing their job as a performer properly.

And to the other post, it's an oxymoron. If the masked magician was entertaining he would have an act other than just exposing magic tricks, but he doesn't. If he did then I would debate it. And if he did yes, I would far rather watch him than a very skilled magician who has no performance ability's, but again, he doesn't so there is no use in debating it.
I honestly think pretty much no one knows who he is except magicians.
Jack Baines
View Profile
New user
33 Posts

Profile of Jack Baines
Quote:
On 2010-11-30 23:11, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote:
On 2009-11-02 08:56, Todd Robbins wrote:
"I HATE those bad magicians that are entertaining. I like those good magicians that are not entertaining. That's what it is all about."

An oversimplification, perhaps, but that seems to leave:

(A) bad magicians who are not entertaining, and
(B) good magicians who are entertaining.


Is this a fair assumption?


Presumably it can be taken for granted that people like good magicians who are entertaining and don't like bad magicians who are not entertaining. But if a magicians job is entertainment, which of course it is, then should we really hold entertaining bad magicians in a lower regard than non entertaining skilled ones?
Jack Baines
View Profile
New user
33 Posts

Profile of Jack Baines
Quote:
On 2009-09-26 06:08, funsway wrote:
The bad news is that more and more people seem to carve "being entertained" rather than finding ways to entertain themselves. This creates and insatiable maw that will be fed by someone -- if not by P&T, then by another. The problem isn't exposing magic, it is people allowing their cravings to run amuck.

The good news is that people watch these shows purely for entertainment. They will also watch the re-runs of P&T and the Masked MAgcian even though they know the outcome. It is a form of senility brought on by boredom rather than old age. Everyone knows how some moves of lInkiong Rings and Cups and Balls are done. They will still watch the re-runs.

The real problem IMHO is that fewer and fewer people will be inerested in doing the work required to become a good magician, when being a bad magician for the sake of entertainment pays better. (bad not having anything to do with skill. Fortunatley, there are those like Whit Haydn who can do good magic and be entertaining -- but he works at it.


This is the post Todd was responding to. I think we have perhaps taken an off the cuff comment, simply meant to point out that this was an ill thought out post which made little sense and was also fairly inaccurate (I'm sorry funsway, but I do feel this way about your assessment of the value of entertainment) and ran too far with it.
Pakar Ilusi
View Profile
Inner circle
5715 Posts

Profile of Pakar Ilusi
I think that the whole question of justifying any exposure is moot really...

Everyone does whatever they want anyway with no repercussions whatsoever.

Why should P&T justify anything? To whom? The "rest of us"? For what?

Really, think about it.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
TonyB2009
View Profile
Inner circle
5006 Posts

Profile of TonyB2009
Quote:
On 2010-11-29 11:20, stoneunhinged wrote:
Do you mean Todd's statement? It says that if one is a good magician, the entertainment is the magic itself, rather than something "added on" in a misguided attempt to be "entertaining".

Or perhaps Todd was just being ironic?
Todd Robbins
View Profile
V.I.P.
New York
2917 Posts

Profile of Todd Robbins
I would probably vote for that ironic thing. Maybe even adding in a bit of sarcasm.

Quote:
On 2010-12-03 22:44, TonyB2009 wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-11-29 11:20, stoneunhinged wrote:
Do you mean Todd's statement? It says that if one is a good magician, the entertainment is the magic itself, rather than something "added on" in a misguided attempt to be "entertaining".

Or perhaps Todd was just being ironic?
stoneunhinged
View Profile
Inner circle
3079 Posts

Profile of stoneunhinged
Todd, your vote doesn't count. Since you said it, you can hardly interpret it.

Think about it.

I vote for my interpretation. Smile
HerbLarry
View Profile
Special user
Poof!
731 Posts

Profile of HerbLarry
Quote:
On 2010-12-02 00:17, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
I think that the whole question of justifying any exposure is moot really...

Everyone does whatever they want anyway with no repercussions whatsoever.

Why should P&T justify anything? To whom? The "rest of us"? For what?

Really, think about it.


:applause: Smile Smile
You know why don't act naive.
Brainbu$ter
View Profile
Veteran user
Indianapolis, IN
325 Posts

Profile of Brainbu$ter
So he doesn't take himself seriously. That's wonderful.
But the problem is that he's not telling HIS OWN secrets.
He didn't invent the Mismade Lady, or the Cups & Balls.
When performers go on to Fool Us, and at the end Penn just
spits out all the jargon and methods (sounds to me like he's bragging that
he caught the magician out), Penn himself wouldn't be able to survive that after
his Las Vegas show.
What if, after every effect P&T do in Vegas, the audience can chime in, discuss
how they think it's done, and walk up on stage and examine all the props. Really?

How would they feel if I exposed their Bullet Catch secret?
The best virtual magic show by the stupendous zoom magician Jon Finch.
Jonathan Townsend
View Profile
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
27157 Posts

Profile of Jonathan Townsend
You can't expose anything that's on the open market. Once your uncle's second cousin can walk into a magic shop and say "i want to buy one of those" ... it's exposed. Once a self rightous reporter or lawyer takes it upon himself to set down detailed descriptions of how other people's tricks are done - the secrets are out... and available in the papers and then in Dover paperback.
You can show what is described, illustrated etc in a book that's on the shelf in your local bookstore, library ... not a biggie aside from how that might affect other tricks you do later using that principle. Similarly giving a non-performer any information about how any item is done can propagate the information very far very quickly and you may well wind up hearing about it the next time you perform a trick. Nothing like being asked about light up thumb thingies by a stranger at the bar who just heard you do magic as a hobby.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Mr. Mystoffelees
View Profile
Inner circle
I haven't changed anyone's opinion in
3621 Posts

Profile of Mr. Mystoffelees
"You can't expose anything that's on the open market."

I am not sure I agree, but give us your word for bringing to light, to the masses, something that is open-knowledge but not commonly known. Disclose, perhaps...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
Jonathan Townsend
View Profile
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
27157 Posts

Profile of Jonathan Townsend
Smile I hear The Electric Company exposed the mystery of the number that is one more than three. Terrible! How could they give away for free what's in my "mystery of the number that is more than three volume one" secret files available only to select subscribers. Smile

IE - just who is claiming what is a secret (to be kept by who and from who?) ?? Smile

The way I think about it in context is to imagine the Secret brand deodorant commercial slogan playing while listening to reading magicians discuss "secret" product. Strong enough for a salesman ... but kept from a magician.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » How do Penn and Teller justify exposing illusions? (1 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3..9~10~11~12~13~14 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.2 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL