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aby9plp Loyal user Montreal, Canada 255 Posts |
Yeah, do you need that too? Because I have some very good tricks, but not sure if its the right place for the restaurants. Do the people on the other tables look at the magician too? So lets say you have a break in a deck of cards and the table next to you can see it, is it bad? Or like the folding coin?
So do you need to pay attention to the other persons on the other tables too?
-aka-
Phoenix |
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BenSchwartz Elite user Southern California 499 Posts |
I think that your angles are not that bad at all in a resturaunt. I believe. This is just my own opinion. That if another table is seeing how a trick works (not necessarily the whole trick but just a break or palm) then I don't think its bad.
"The experience of astonishment is the experience of a clear, primal state of mind that they associate with a child's state of mind." ---- Paul Harris
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Larry Davidson Inner circle Boynton Beach, FL 5270 Posts |
I disagree. I think you should worry about angles and I think it is bad to let another table see how a trick works, even if they "just" see a palm or a break.
But there are ways to cover angles. For example, when you hold a pinky break, hold the deck perpendicular vs. parallel to the ground (your thumb is facing the ceiling and your pinky is facing the ground) or make sure your other hand is close enough to the broken side of the deck to obscure its view. When palming, block the bad angle with your body or other hand (depends on the routine). At the bottom line, yes, you should worry about people at other tables. |
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BenSchwartz Elite user Southern California 499 Posts |
You then eliminate ALL jumbo coins, breaks and what not. Most people won't know the heck is going on anyway.
"The experience of astonishment is the experience of a clear, primal state of mind that they associate with a child's state of mind." ---- Paul Harris
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Dedi New user 2 Posts |
I have wondered this aswell and would really like to see some more insights and opinions. Should we limit our choices to 'angle safe' sleights? Or is it ok for someone at the next table to see a palmed card or coin?
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BenSchwartz Elite user Southern California 499 Posts |
I think its perfectly fine. As I mentioned above. Of course, other opinions might change my opinion. Where's Marucci whenm you need him? LOL How about Scott. LOL
"The experience of astonishment is the experience of a clear, primal state of mind that they associate with a child's state of mind." ---- Paul Harris
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IanBrodie Regular user 147 Posts |
I've not found angles to be too big an issue - especially if the tables are relatively close together so that anything below waist height effectively becomes invisible.
Palming tends to be OK - you shouldn't have the back of your hand to the spectators anyway. Certain things are very vulnerable - for example if you do anything sneaky while holding the deck behind your back (e.g. Mullica's routine where he tries to identify the card by feel but secretly does something else.) A good trick here which I read in the Magic Menu is to hold the deck behind your back but inside your jacket. Card folds are somewhat vulnerable too if you're just relying on body cover. You have to find some way of protecting the back - maybe doing it between your body at the back and a spectator and behind a spectator at the front for example - or leaning down to take a peek at a card and letting your folding hand go way below the table. You should be able to think your way out of most of these challenges - but it will probably take a specific solution in each case rather than a generic one-size-fits-all angle problem solver. Ian |
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phonic69 Special user 560 Posts |
I have never been questioned on angles by another table, if anything they say "oh could you show us the effect you did over there, it looked really good" or something like that - they see the effect not the workings.
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Larry Davidson Inner circle Boynton Beach, FL 5270 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-01-09 02:18, BenSchwartz wrote: I don't follow your logic. Just above I explained how you can hold a break without anyone seeing it. And why would you eliminate jumbo coins? Just eliminate moves with jumbo coins that are angly. I've performed in restaurants for more than 20 years and that's my experience. For example, I perform a routine where a very small Penny (1/4 inch) turns into a jumbo Penny, and there are absolutely no bad angles. It looks good from the front, the sides, and behind me. I also perform card folds (mercury) and just about everything else you can imagine, and none of it has angle problems because I don't use moves that are angly. Exposing something for another table is as bad as exposing something for the particular table you're working. Just think about what you do and perform it in a way that angles aren't an issue (change moves where necessary, use body blocking technique, etc.). |
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BenSchwartz Elite user Southern California 499 Posts |
I tend to disagree, If someone sees me pull a jumbo coin out of a holdout, I really don't think that I am revealing anything at all. They're just thinking to themself, that's a big coin. Not oooo know I know how jumbo coins routines are done, look dad he holds that big coin in tenkai palm real good. LOL Or look at how he cut the deck. Not, wow that classic pass was excecuted real well. I think if you are flashing shells and what not, that tends to be a problem. Everyone knows about palming coins, although I tend to not try to let other tables see that. I think that some things are allowed to be seen, and others are not. I believe it is just a matter of opinion.
"The experience of astonishment is the experience of a clear, primal state of mind that they associate with a child's state of mind." ---- Paul Harris
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Mr A New user 54 Posts |
I agree with Larry, I don't want to show any part of how a effect is accomplished, even if it is not exposed to the table I am working. I think it takes away from the MAGIC.
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
Angles in restaurants ARE, in fact, an issue, IMO. This is particularly true if you have repeat customers. Ben's example of the jumbo coin is a case in point. If you did the trick with the jumbo coin for a table and completely fooled them and then those same people come back the next week and see you pulling the coin out of your belt (or wherever), you have just ruined the magic for them. They don't know what Tenkai Palm is, of course. But even if they only catch part of the method--even if they only ASSUME part of the method, however right or wrong they may be--the effect is spoiled for them.
I have an article on Visions regarding angles. Often, the only person a magician fools is himself, by thinking the audience didn't see how he did the trick. One thing you can do is wear a coat to help cover steals and ditches in pockets from the sides and behind. Another is to work in close to your body when doing a secret move that would otherwise be visible from behind. But you should always be aware of where everyone is (both at the table where you're performing as well as all around you) and make sure that your effects are not being exposed to them. This may eliminate some stuff. However, I do cards, coins, jumbo coins, cups & balls, chop cup (both with final loads), ring and string, IT, TT and more in restaurants--usually with no jacket and short sleeves or sleeves rolled up! The problem, as has been stated by Vernon and others, is that magicians stop thinking too soon, and most don't want to go to the extra mental effort to think through their routines and what the angles, etc are! However, the rewards are great, and you earn quite a reputation when people tell their friends about how you fooled them even with tricks they've seen before, even when they sat behind you, even without a coat, even in short sleeves, etc!
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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Larry Davidson Inner circle Boynton Beach, FL 5270 Posts |
Ditto.
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Mickey Cohen New user 51 Posts |
In my opinion magic performed standing up and surrounded has to be angle proof ...no exceptions .This is the law I follow.I was at Illusions in Carmel, Indiana and I was eating while a magician was entertaining the table next to mine . I saw everything.Palmed cards ,coins coming from the back of his pants ,a ringflite hook hanging out of his pocket. In fact I think a few other tables saw the same things ,only the table he was engrossed in was oblivious to all these sneaky little happenings.His act ,though he didn't realize it started to resemble the theme of the flight of the paper balls .Well naturally all the other tables including myself did not want this magician to perform for us afterall we wanted to be amazed.Something at this point this magician had destroyed. So many great effects are not angle proof,but when your standing up surrounded that's just your tough luck.
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Jack Bryce Regular user Edinburgh UK 130 Posts |
I agree with Larry, and a few others, angles are important, as Larry says, your moves shouldn’t be angly, think what your doing and angles shouldn’t be an issue.
For coin magic I more often than not use the classic palm, I don’t see how anyone can see the palmed coin, unless your waving your hand around, or your exposing it in some way! I also produce a jumbo coin as a final production in one of my routines, I have never been caught in the production or this, I use misdirection while I steal the load and it’s hidden by my hand until the moment it is produced,. I then let this coin fall to the table with a bang! This is usually the time when most of the other tables look over and wonder what the noise was, up until then they are too interested in their food or their own company! I also palm cards, use the mercury card fold and lots of other slights and have never been questioned or pulled up by the next table or any other table, although in the UK we don’t tend to be resident in a restaurant, I still get booked to entertain at dinner parties, wedding receptions and private parties where tables can be very close by, so I am of the opinion that its wrong to let the other tables see anything!
http://www.jackbrycemagic.co.uk
I never forget a face but in your case I will gladly make an exception...Groucho Marx |
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Cabrera Special user Seattle 513 Posts |
I only use angle proof routines when performing at restaurants. If I find a trick is not angle proof, I try to reconstruct the routine so that it is, or I take it out. There are plenty of tricks that can be done surrounded without tipping the method or flashing. You just have to be honest with yourself, and learn through experience.
Hint: A men's pocket handkerchief can be employed in many a routine to make invisible steals or vanishes. This covers an object from all angles....
"The quilt of life is woven with many different threads"
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DJ Trix Inner circle 1197 Posts |
How long have you been doing magic BenSchwartz.....
Because magic is supposed to be real to people not just tricks, if people see you load coins or see a palmed card in your hand they know it is not real and it wont be as injoyable to them... exposing secrets are what good magicians are trying to stop. my opinion... |
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Ron Reid Inner circle Phoenix, Arizona 2732 Posts |
For me, angles are a big consideration when I consider adding a new effect to my performance. I love finding strong effects that have no angle problems...it frees my thinking, allows me to relax, and have a good time while entertaining. My most recent favorite is Mike Close's version of the shoelace and straw trick from his Very Close Video Series. Very strong and NO angles problems, whatsoever.
Also, I think when lay people see the magician to "something funny" they assume they caught him, even if they're way off. I remember an example from a stage dove act I saw, done very well. I was sitting close with some non-magician friends, who had no real idea how the magician was producing the doves from empty silks...but my friends thought they knew. They said, "Oh, we could see those little loops coming out of his jacket - that's how he does it." So, I think it's the same with close up magic. If a spectator sees you doing something suspicious, in his mind he has found you out. There's so much good, angle-proof material for the taking, why take a chance when you don't have to? Ron Reid |
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JamesinLA Inner circle Los Angeles 3400 Posts |
Oay, here's my two cents. I don't think "Everyone knows about palming coins" at all! I don't think a normal audience has any idea that something like a coin can be palmed in the way a classic palm is. Also, if an audience member doesn't know the name of a given sleight, so what. They know they're seeing something which is not "magic" and the wonder and mystery dies right then and there. Have we changed Ben's mind?
Jim
Oh, my friend we're older but no wiser, for in our hearts the dreams are still the same...
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
If you want to garner attention at OTHER tables, try something "angly" at one table!
In other words, yes, other tables DO watch what you are doing; so take care of those angles! And, yes, you may have to get rid of some effects; so what? There are about a zillion other things that you could do; you've just become too attached to the ones you'll have to drop. Remember, you are there to entertain the clients, not to amuse yourself! |
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