I guess that's either a problem or an asset depending on your desires.

Reminds me of the ol' computer adage..."that's not a bug, its a feature."

Best,
Bill

I prefer the C&B's to the CC more so because the C&B provide more that can be done. I have always avoided using the combo set becasue I have yet to see a set where the gimmick of the chop cup was not massively different from those of the regular cups.

My cups are fully examined before I do the trick and I often have people coming up afterwards to ask to see them. I want no doubt in anyone's mind that there is anything gimmicked with the cups. I also have yet to see anything done with the chop cup that could not be duplicated with SOH (this is where I get 50 replies saying how could you do this without the gimmick!!!).

Though if anyone knows of a set that is different please let me know. They would not need to make the gimmick any different, just add psuedo gimmicks to the other cups really. It might be fun to play with. I do a one cup routine in the middle of the act anyway and I don't see why a chop cup could not make it more fun.

*******************

BTW has anyone ever had a problem with handing out a CC for examination and had other items on the table react to the gimmick?

Just curious,

Mat Random

I don't care for the chop cup. I do a one cup routine with a regular cup. The reason for me disliking the chop cup is this:

It never wants to release the ball when I want it to. Not without the spectators noticing (I at least think they do) me doing "it" harder than usual--do you know what I mean?

Besides with a little extra work I can make the one cup routine look exactly like the chop cup.


Jesper

Jesper, as a fellow Dane, I suggest the following move to "release" the ball. Do NOT set the cup down square to the table. Let ONE EDGE (cup tipped) down and when it strikes the table the ball drops zig-zag style and will not bounce back up and stick to the M****T.

Certainly something to consider.
Bringing the CC down NOT square on the surface is quite necessary depending on the surface.

When I was using the same restaurant tables all the time, it was no problem. But switching to a padded surface later made things very different.

Yikes.

I have a set of the Herb Morrisey Combo Cups from the 70's and I doubt a spectator could tell which cup has the secret stuff. John Mendoza has a great routine that exploits these features.

I have The Classic Magic of Larry Jennings and he has his chop cup routine in there. Also the Don Alan routine is similar to Larry's and Ron's.

Kirk

In this discussion on C&B vs CC, there are several points to consider:
1 - The number of cups. Obviously, with more than one cup, you can do more: the cup through cup move; the balls through cup phase; and the transpositions between cups. With only one cup, you lose all this, so the only transpositions that you can get are from your hand or pocket to the cup. However, with one cup, you need less of a performance area so you gain there.
2 - The chop method. The chop cup is great for one reason and one reason only: You can lift the cup and show it empty one second, then drop the cup and immediately show that the ball is now under the cup. You can approximate this move with sleight of hand, but it is nowhere near as clean.

Kirk mentioned John Mendoza's routine and it really is a wonderful routine using a combo-set (although you do have to be seated). Nowadays, I use a chop cup purely for portability.

Jesper complained about the ball sticking to the cup. While Pete mentioned that a slightly different handling of the cup would help the problem, this is really a manufacturing problem. That is, with a smaller m****t in the cup or the ball, the attraction wouldn't be as strong, so the problem wouldn't occur. Have a look at the props and see if you can push the m****t further into the ball (thereby weakening the attraction). With my chop cup, I don't have to bang the cup; a gentle tap and the ball is dislodged. Alternatively, try replacing the m****t in the ball with a nail. Assuming there is a m****t in the cup, you may find that the nail works well.

I'm partial to the one cup routines (easier to carry about the restaurant).
I actually use a paper Starbucks coffee cup. I like using props that people know and it allows me to use a wooden coffee stir stick as a comedy magic wand (the cup costs so much...but they do give you this free magic wand).

I would like to eventually create a gaff that would make this cup a chop cup.

By the way, does anyone know where I can get oversized coffee beans? I may end up making my own from fimo clay.

Believe me, I have done what I could to solve it. I just don't feel good if the moves aren't consistent. If they notice that, I'm busted. I don't like gimmicks that aren't hidden, like a TT.

A friend of mine was table hopping with a chop cup. One of the spectators was handed the wand and told to hit the cup like a man. One of the other spectators decided to join the fun and hit the cup with his spoon--what harm could that do

Well...he had to use both hands to get his spoon back, that's for sure. Now that's the classic "magician in trouble" ploy.

Anyway, I like to use a regular cup. Then I don't have to keep track of the special ball. I usually improvise the chop cup. I know how to begin and how to end. This way I can suit the routine to the spectators and the climax gets maximum impact. And as a bonus I get to play with different techniques.

If I had table space to perform on, the cups and balls would be by far my best trick, and that includes the chop cup routines I've seen. So much more variation.

But without a table, the Dennis Loomis Micro Chop Cup (made by Jim Riser) is a little gem. There's two cups that he sells, and the more popular one is the one which looks like a spirit measure, and not as "proppy" as a big cup. The cup is small, the loads are bright and the magic is huge. Highly recomended.

Damien.

Correction: The Classic Magic of Larry Jennings has his "One Cup" routine, not the chop cup. Also, the shot glass and scarf idea is apparently Ron Wilson's. Since I don't have The Uncanny Scot, I am unsure of where I read about this routine. I will try and find out, but don't hold your breath.

Kirk

If you have difficulty with a chop in the combo cup set and can't seem to follow the ball the way you should:

1. Sweater balls. Take a similar colored embroidery thread that is slightly off color and sew it around "the" ball in a four section split. If the color is close enough you will see it and the specs won't.
   
   
2. Ring with a neo****** in it not only will allow you to feel which one you have, but gives you a Killer "chop hand."
   
   
3. A neo "sweet spot" on your table in one corner can also help. You could also have one in a comedy location in your clothes.
   
   
4. Wand "balancing" the balls with the right wand.
   

Actually the concept of loading a cup under cover of the silk handkerchief (as in Ron Wilson's routine and later adapted by Larry Jennings) came originally from Bob Stencel.

If you're going for that "impromptu" appearance, a rolled up napkin (roll the **g**t in) and a paper cup with a r***r bl*** stuck inside a circle of paper in the bottom takes care for setup. BIG beans are not really nice props. GIANT SPONGE beans might be fun. Very tough to beat a hot cup of coffee load, especially when you start covering the cup with the traveler cap.

On a related theme, has anyone considered the fun of doing a C/S/B with the sugar/Sweet & Low/Equal packets?
It could lead up to a really stunning Sweet Salt at the end.

I guess it is always the effect, not the gimmick, but I would have the say Cups and Balls. For me there is not really a comparison, as they are very different I think. I feel that, as many others have said, CandB's can do so much more, and is a nice, ling, versatile routine, whereas the chop cup, for me, is just not interesting enough. And I prefer gimmickless props anyway.

While I admittedly prefer gimmickless props, as they are typically more versatile, I never fail to use a gimmick when it can enhance the performance of the effect.

Kirk

For a few months I have been using the Dennis Loomis Routine with the James Riser/Dennis Loomis Micro Chop Cup. It's wonderful--small and all the magic is in your hands. Because the cup is placed in your palm, you always know if the ball is on your palm and there is no sound with the ball's release. One of the chop cups in the set looks like a solid shot "glass" and does not look like a magical piece of apparatus. Although I haven't done it, liquid can be poured into the cup and then the cup vanishes.
Richard

Thanks to doowopper and to Damien Keen for the kind comments on the Loomis/Riser Micro Chop Cup. Incidently, Damien, the sales don't support your contention that the Stainless Steel Cup is more popular. The biggest seller has been the combination set, which includes both of the styles. But in the single cup sales, we've sold more of the Copper Cups.

To Jesper...it sounds to me like you do not have a good match of your chop cup and ball. It's way too strong. Don't judge all chop cups by your set. When we were working on the design of the Loomis/Riser Micro Chop Cups we assumed that we could buy balls from another source. We found that the strength of the balls were all over the place. In a batch of a dozen from the same supplier, there would be ones that were too weak, ones that were too strong, etc. Jim Riser makes the balls that we supply because we were determined that the props would work properly. I do the shipping and do a test of every set before I ship it just as a final quality check.

I suggest that no matter what size chop cup you have, you play with a routine done in your hands. There's one subtle but important advantage that has not yet been mentioned in this thread. (The fact that you always know if the ball is released and that there are no talking problems are important, but have been mentioned above.) Assume that a chop cup is sitting on the table and it's necessary to release the ball. You have to create some reason for lifting the cup and putting it back down. Repeated enough, this is unnatural and suspicious. Since only one ball is in play, and it's either in view or they've just seen you put it in your pocket, showing the cup is "running when no one is chasing you." (A quote from Al Baker.)

But, if you have a cup sitting on your outstretched fingers, you only have to create a motivation for using the hand. Here are some that can be used at almost any time:

The other hand comes over and lifts the cup from above so that the hand which has been holding the cup can gesture while you are speaking. Or, so that the hand can reach up and adjust your glasses. Or, so that the hand can reach and pick up your drink to take a sip. Or, so that the hand can reach out to hand something to or take something from a spectator or from a pocket. In the process, you reinforce the idea that the cup is empty without making an issue of it. In all of these cases as the hand comes back into position and the cup is replaced, the release is done.

Incidently, when you do the release on the hand, the hand which is receiving the cup can move slightly upward and participate in creating the force necessary for the release. That makes it a less noticable move as well.

Dennis Loomis
http://www.loomismagic.com

I love the chop cup because it seems so fair. I've developed my routine based off of Bannon's Chop2 but did away with the nut sequence because it seemed to be too much time in the pockets for me and I added a few things to it. The fact is with traditional cups and balls, 3 cups, it seems very intrusive while walking around or table hopping. It's like "I'm here! Put everything aside for me the MAGICIAN" whereas the chop cup can be just as entertaining if not better because of reasons already stated and takes up maybe a 3 inch space on the table. If you're entertaining people will love it. I tend to act just as surprised as they are when things happen in the routine. Plus pocket management on the traditional set is a pain...who wants to carry around all 3 cups plus like 4 final loads all night? NOT ME...but maybe some of you. Have fun and Keep Creating!!!

Is anyone playing with the ball on a string thing from that old book? The one where you can tip the inverted cup towards the audience to show the ball.

:)

Just asking