Just one point about DB (as some of you have gone off topic a little (but I would tune in to see David Ike read the news as long as he was wearing his shell suit and could Uri do the news? How would he spin it ....... well I saw that one coming?) Any way back on to my point.

All this talk about the disclaimer at the start of the show (I don’t recall him saying "I'm not above lying" in it by the way but am sure have heard him use a similar phrase in a show at some time). He is very aware of what he says in that and it is NOT the same each show. I remember watching a re-run of the one where a woman sitting on a station bench saw a “kafuffle” (Lou from Little Britain …. I think) and then he asks her question about it and she describes him full and in the end reveals his name (and gets it right! – wont bore you with the details BUT truly amazing). Any way the point is – on watching the re-run of it I noticed at the start of the show the disclaimer was different and he dropped the phrase “does not use actors” as the man in the kafuffle was indeed an actor.

So if he changes it occasionally one needs to be aware that he can and does change it so you can’t generalize about all of the shows you need to take them in to context. As with so much of you tube – can you take any one clip for what it is? Is it a legal publication even? I don’t know.

Any way here is what Darren’s own site says about him (if it comes over on the café?):

Derren Brown is a unique force in the world of illusion - he can seemingly predict and control human behaviour.
He doesn't claim to be a mind-reader, instead he describes his craft as a mixture of magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship.
Whatever you choose to call it, his unparalleled performances amaze and unsettle all those who watch him. This is a powerful and provocative form of entertainment, unlikely to be imitated for a long while.

The link is

http://www.derrenbrown.co.uk/?flash=no

Dave

Quite. But I think an additional point is his mentioning misdirection. Everything after that word should be taken with a pinch of salt- including the talk of 'no actors or stooges' as this may well be misdirection in itself.

He is on TV as an entertainer. Can we all agree on this?

Why is he held to such a high "ethical" standard? I really don't get this at all.

Remember the Geller farce? DB will have to live with himself, as does Geller. Both will be rich (in cash). For sure, morals don`t seem to count anymore in any profession, so to sell the lie gets the dosh. You can either join them or debunk them, but at the end of the day, it boils down to the way an individual is.
Geller lives near to me and has convinced himself of his greatness. DB is still working on this.

If their persona runs over into their everyday life, then I would choose not to mix with such people.
We are in Entertainment 1st, 2nd, and last. Let's not fool ourselves into believing it is anything more.

Ken

Derren Brown is pretty cool. His showmanship is advanced to a level I doubt many on this board who criticise him could match.

I have noticed that a few people, mostly women with questionable IQ's, seem to get rather taken in by it all and regard him as something of a god. They really are fans with a capital "F". But, nevertheless, they are being entertained too, just by the process of being taken in by it all.

I don't think he should reduce the impact of his act to cater for the lowest common denominator of a few. These people will, in the main, have better informed people around them, who will bring them back to earth when needed.

I can't imagine why a site full of "alleged performers" can't figure out this simple concept.

We are indeed entertainers. We entertain, and he is no different.

Maybe we should ask David Copperfield to reveal he has stooges before a show...how he is lying that he has 4 different methods for everything...or tell us that when the Ferrari fell he wouldn't have got hurt because it was an Asrah.

"I'm going to play a movie now, with subliminal messages. Don't watch if you're 12 years old or younger, it could have serious effects on you."

A lie. Unethical?

If you have seen Derrens 'Devils picturebook' dvd/video then you know that everything he does is not a trick.For example when Peter puts a card on the table
and Derren names correctly a few times in a row.
He really does use stuff from N.L.P.Granted it's not as much as he says but he still does.So that's why I think he is ethical [and brilliant!]

Also, watch his lecture. He said he is not above using stooges if it helps sale the trick. That's not a quote but from my memory so his wording might be different.

Here's the disclaimer Derren Brown says in his show named, "Something Wicked This Way Comes":

He speaks this loudly and clearly during his show when everyone is focusing on his every word.

I wouldn't like his show if he had not used a disclaimer. Being an "entertainer" is not a sufficient disclaimer. Uri Geller was an entertainer too.

I believe it is wrong if a performer provides false evidence for important traits of human beings, while representing that evidence as real. Derren Brown clearly didn't do that in his hit show. He's honest about his dishonesty.

By the way, he got a laugh during his disclaimer. That's the mark of a great performer, he even made that entertaining!

dave_matkin, also made a good point above about how Derren Brown represents himself on his own web site.

"He will lie even when it is inconvenient: the sign of the true artist". Gore Vidal
(Attributed).

Harry Houdini is regarded as the greatest magician and escape artist of all time. We all know that, more often than not, he had "helpers" and had weighed the odds massively in his favour before presenting one of his "escapes". In actual fact, most of his escapes weren't escapes at all. They were magic tricks made up to look like escapes. Houdinis real skill lay in his ability to sell what he was doing as legitimate. People believed that what he was doing WAS possible, although extremely difficult, which made it all the more amazing.

I can't tell you how furious it makes me when I hear the massive number of people on this forum whine on about "the moment of astonishment" or "believing in real magic". This idea, of asking an audience to suspend their disbelief, whilst the magician juggles playing cards and fondles rabbits, is exactly the reason magic is held in such low esteem as a form of entertainment. People like Houdini, and these days, Derren Brown, were/are intelligent enough to know that it's ridiculous to ask an audience to believe in something such as sawing a woman in half. A six year old knows that it can't be done. But ask them to believe in something that sounds impossible, but just might exist, and then you've got their attention. I can count the number of well known performers who have successfully achieved this on one hand. How sad is that?

For those that disagree, I suggest you read Mr. Brown's fabulous book, 'Absolute Magic'. Here, Derren explains many of his thoughts and ideas regarding close up magic and its relationship to theatre and art. Derren's performances are entertianing and thought provoking. He goes out of his way to state that what he does is a COMBINATION of psychology and magic (If I bake a cake, and use 1% self raising flour, and 99% standard flour, I am still "combining" the two). He is an entertainer, and cannot be held responsible for those impressionable members of the public and idiotic magicians who challenge what he does.

-- Topher

Well if you tell someone there are 1,000,000,000,000 stars in the galaxy they will believe you. Tell a man a bench has wet paint, and he has to touch it just to make sure.

See to me the "lies" Derren Brown tells are just as unbelievable as the sawing a lady in half. A 8 year old will know it is not possible. He too asks for a suspension of disbelief. How is what he does any different than the sawing? Your example is quite flawed actually.

As for "unethical" I think the term is laughable when applied to a show. Of course he will bend the "truth" (another laughable term when used to describe a show). He is an entertainer, he entertains. He is not claiming to make a documentary.

I am not personally, nor do I know of anyone personally who is entertained by him as his nonsense is as bad as the woman in half to me. But that being said he is not unethical, and he is quite famous in England.

Danny,

I disagree. Perhaps an 8 year old is not mature enough to understand the ideas that Derren presents in his show. But I can assure you, that an intelligent, adult audience will find Derren's performances far less patronising than your Vegas style "illusion" show. I'm not surprised that you don't find him entertaining. I take it you are based in America?

I think you guys misunderstand exactly what Derren is trying to do. As Teller states in the opening of Derren's book,

"In most magic, as far as I can see, the plot is, "I wish for something. I get it. And it's what I want (though many right-thinking persons might well ask 'What earthly use does that raucous geezer have for a dove?')"

If you could genuinely do the impossible, what is it that you would do to demonstrate your ability? I have asked this question to magicians time and time again, and not one of them can give me a straight answer, nor have they been able to see the importance of the question. If I went out on the street and asked the general public the above question, I'd be willing to bet my left **** that not a single one of them would say "find your playing card" or "make a tiny red sponge ball vanish". Having said that, a couple of them may like to read minds. Even if you were one of the people that wished they could fly, or become invisible, you'd likely agree that the ability to read minds would be an interesting thing to have. This is exactly where Derren's act comes from. The desire to do something that other people wish they could do, and make it meaningful. I think it's safe to say that he has succeeded.

I find it difficult to believe that the original author of this thread is happy to condone someone like Uri Gellar, who we know uses magic techniques to sell himself as the real deal, and yet criticises Derren Brown, a man who makes a statement at the beginning of EVERY show, that he uses "magic". It just goes to prove that perhaps Derren has set the bar a little too high.

-- Topher

Sorry but he is just trying to sell himself and that is all.

Don't give me some superior attitude of "Americans just don't get it", when in reality we just don't put up with it.

He has a show comming over the pond, maybe you are wrong and Americans will get it.

Less patronising than an illusion show huh? Really? Not from what I hear from people from England but ok if you insist.

I get it he is your hero, no problem. But don't tell me he is any less patronising and full of it than any one of us. Otherwise you just show that it is you who does not get it.

The ideas behind the show styles are distinct.

One wishes to advertise makeovers and a host of pretty assistants that are available for private trickery.

The other wishes to advertise their availability for private social functions.

Danny,



I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean that Derren is trying to 'sell himself' in order to sell more tickets/take more bookings/make more money, then I can hardly disagree with you. I imagine there isn't a working magician, or any kind of businessman period, who isn't guilty of that. However I expect you may be referring to the fact that you believe Derren is trying to sell himself as "the real deal", or in other words a psychic/medium. This only demonstrates to me and the rest of the forum that you are clearly misguided in your ideas, and have infact seen/read very little, if any, of Derren's work. I have been fortunate enough to see around 75% of the stuff that Derren has made in the last few years, and I can tell you this. Not once have I seen a show where he didn't refer to his background in magic. And these aren't the subtle, in jokes that Derren slips into his show for the magicians watching. These are statements of "I use magic in what I do", that are directed at the entire audience. If the people watching choose to ignore it, that's up to them.

I'm not surprised you glazed over the question in my last post that I said nobody wants to answer. It's nothing personal, it's just that no magician wants to answer it. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that subject though, considering you think Derren has got it wrong.

I don't consider Derren my hero. I'm not a 14 year old boy, and there are far more interesting people in the world than magicians to look up to and admire, as far as I'm concerned. But I do think his ideas and performances show a lot of thought, and would consider him one of my favourite magicians...but definately not a "hero".

And at the end of the day, our opinion doesn't matter, does it? Because a lot more people have heard of Derren Brown, than have heard of "Topher Higgins" or "dannydoyle".

Cheers,

-- Topher

Ok I don't approach what I do from the belief that I have powers so what I would do if I REALLY had them is not relevant. I DON'T wish to insult an audience by trying to imply I do.

I fully believe he is only trying to sell himself as a performer. I said this earlier. It is pretty obvious.

Your point that it is less patronising is not true. It can be MORE patronising actually.

And hold back on the arguements of nobody has heard of us so the opinion does not matter. Nobody has heard of ANYONE who is buying tickets, and their opinions matter. The very idea that unless you have some sort of fame the opinion is not valid is really a unique view that most here on the Café' hold.

It is funny when you disagree your automatically jealous. When you disagree unless you are more famous than the person, well that opinion is not valid. I just don't understand this place at all.

One writer on magic commented that the most 'honest' mystery entertainer was the ESCAPE ARTIST: He claims he will get out of something...and does.