Perhaps the wording of my comment was incorrect. When I referred to our opinion being irrelevant, I meant that it doesn't matter what we think, because Derren is massively successful (even if it is predominantly in the UK). Whether we (being members of this forum) like him or agree with what he does will not change that. Of course we're entitled to have an opinion, whether we're celebrities or not. The fact remains that enormous numbers of people watch Derren's shows and go to see him live. So, he must be doing something that appeals to someone, regardless of whether you like him or not. I certainly don't share the view that if you're not well known, you're not worth listening to. Apologies for any confusion.

Reading back over this page, I think perhaps we both have the same opinion regarding the initial post. That Derren is merely a performer, and I totally agree with you when you asked "Why is he held to such a high "ethical" standard?". But you talk about selling yourself as a performer as if its a bad thing, which I don't understand. Could you elaborate a little on that please?

I'm also interested in why you think Derren's style of performance could be more patronising than the illusion show. Would love to hear your thoughts on that.

Cheers,

-- Topher

Well to elaborate a bit, to sell himself as the sort of performer he is, can't really be "ethical" at all. We know he has no powers, and certainly anyone over the age of 12 does not believe he does. Even if he did claim it for the purposes of entertainment it is ENTERTAINMENT in the end.

Nobody asks if Hamlet is really dead do they? To make him tell the absolute 100% TRUTH (another relative concept in entertainment) is silly. The JOB DESCRIPTION is to entertain. He is not really doing anything "unethical".

Now I am not talking about selling yourself as a performer as a bad thing. I said that you seem to think that illusion shows are somewhat less patronising. I mentioned how I felt that he simply does EXACTLY the same thing. I am not taking a position on being good or bad, just he is as full of it as any one of us. It is what it is.

My problem arises when he uses the obvious stooging, the obvious things he does (lets not get into a huge debate on this as it is not the point) and then wants us to buy it. So to me that is JUST as insulting as any illusion show asking us to buy a sawing. Just not my style is all. (neither are the sawings by the way)

He is big in England indeed, lets see if he can stay that way. It is odd that the shelf life of "fame" really eludes most. Copperfield, like him or not, has been the tail everyone chases for 30 years and counting. That sort of longevity is not easy to accomplish.

It honestly has never crossed my mind that Derren Brown has real "powers". I don't see himself presenting that anymore than any other mentalist or magician out there... aren't we as magicians supposed to "believe" in our illusions? Or at least attempt to make spectators believe that it is really magical?

Doing a riffle to the deck during an Ambitious Card routine subtlety creates the notion that we are actually bringing the card to the top from the middle.

To call this "unethical" would be ridiculous!

The fact that "reveals" methods (NLP, hypnosis, etc) only to then cast doubt even on that is what's known as the "sucker effect".

Quite traditional method in the art of magic!

Also - Mr. Brown doesn't teach NLP for self help or claim that he is some sort of Hypnosis Guru whatsoever! He can rightfully claim to be somewhat of an expert on the human mind, however-

because he's a great magician.

I am somewhat confused, Derren Brown has always claimed he has never had powers, and never shuts up about it. He is forever just explaining why hypnotism works to the audience due to the complexity of the mind and the very ease of suggestion, which is obvious if you take psychology.

Unethical?

I don’t think so, he’s just kicking all the people who claim they have powers in the teeth really and just saying,

"Look you really don’t ok, anyone could do what you do with the right training, correct speech and presentation. It can be very dangerous to do to people and I don’t advise it for most, and I am no messiah and all you mediums out there, give it up.”

He has never promoted psychological self help in his books or stage act, as that for him is very dangerous, he always comforts people before and after his suggestion plays.

He’s just a smart guy who is doing what most proclaimed mind readers and mentalists never wanted to happen, proving that magic does not exist, neither does magical mental powers and this big time vortex or whatever… everything is just a simple illusion.



Dannydoyle.

I am British and He has been around for quite awhile now, he has certainly outlived Blaine's short legacy.

He continues to be popular here because he screws with the inner minds of people, then shows how it was exactly done, then puts it right with the "Victim" again.

Us British are sick individuals with sick humour and enjoy watching him.

Richard, get a grip. He uses stooges and never says so. He misleads about his methods in the explanation. Seems as if a bit of gullibility is what is going on.

I don't find him "unethical" in the least, and wish him tremendous and continued good fortune. He works hard and deserves it. But come on lets at least be real.

Get a grip? I Don’t think I need to after being around some very cleaver minded people who have been studying psychology and sociology for years, not hypnotism or 13 step mentalist books, we are talking university study of the mind and so forth, and they can do what he does, as I have seen it. The mind is very fickle, with the correct suggestions, wording, experiences and even images. Its quite scary.

Me be real, I am being real DD.

He does not use stooges, and if he uses actors it's to help influence the mind of the victim.

So he does not use stooges?

Now is where we assume you are the only one ever been to university before?

You lose all credibility when you say he uses no stooges. You lose even more when you don't allow for editing. By that I mean is it takes him large numbers of times to accomplish his effect.

If he uses actors?

What did your university say about hero worship?

First I never said I had been university, just been around university graduates who have done psychology and sociology, shown me how suggestion of the mind can work.

Second I did not act as if no one else here had been university, I simply was stating my own experience of who has shown me evidence of manipulation of the mind.

How do I lose credibility?, I am saying my opinion because your saying he does use them, I say he doesn’t, the reason I say he doesn’t is because I have seen what he proclaims to use, work by other people.

Where is your evidence he uses stooges, or uses cleaver editing in his shows?

It's not hero worship, its actually just calling on the other side of the field, as I have seen his techniques used by others and proven to work.

Ok lets just do this.

He is an entertainer. SO ETHICAL is not my issue. I am happy for him being famous and hope he has a tremendous run.

That being said you need to think about some of the routines he does and if he coudl do them without stooges. Just think. You will get to the answer pretty soon.

I have to say that I've met several laymen who believe that Derren Brown does have the ability to control peoples minds through psychology. These people are not stupid, nor are they twelve. They just don't really know anything about mentalism or psychology.

I think the ethical question is whether Derren Brown is claiming "proof" for the pseudo-sciences of NLP and hypnosis, regardless of his occupation.

Personally, I think he is taking advantage of the "fringe" nature of NLP. The fact that people have heard of it, but really have no idea what it is. The only places I ever saw NLP before Derren Brown was on late night infommercials and in books with titles like "Pick up the woman of your dreams ... TONIGHT!!"

The problem is when people watch his shows and believe that this stuff is as powerful as Derren Brown says it is. Which its not.

Clay

Josh:

No need to repeat, although I share your surprise at the lack of response. Well, this is a serious thread. Gotta tell you, though, I laughed for half an hour- you get the "retort of the year" award from me! Guess I am just shallow...